Few independent bookstores are more iconic than Powell's Books. Even readers who've never been to Portland, Oregon, know about the store from its ads in places like the New Yorker, or from its prominent online presence, or from its reputation as the largest new- and used-book store in the world. The "City of Books," as the four-story flagship store on West Burnside is known, occupies an entire city block, and carries more than one million books. The sixty-eight-thousand-square-foot space is divided into nine color-coded rooms, which together house more than 3,500 sections. From the moment you walk in, it feels as if you could find anything there. (And if you can't, try one of the seven branch stores in five other locations throughout Portland, specializing in everything from technical books to home and garden.)

I was early for my interview with owner Michael Powell, so I decided to get a coffee in the attached café. Like the bookstore itself, the guiding aesthetic is simplicity—no overstuffed chairs, no fireplace, no decorations on the salmon-colored walls other than some taped-up flyers for local bands and a Buddhist meditation group. Not that anyone seems to notice. While I was there, every single person I encountered was reading. At the table nearest me a high school girl in cat-eye glasses and a ski cap read Lucy Knisley's French Milk (Epigraph Publishing, 2000), with a stack of David Sedaris waiting at her elbow. A well-dressed elderly woman flipped through the Oregonian not too far away. And on the other side, near the windows, a young woman with black hair and piercings through both her cheeks was making a list of recipes from The Garden of Vegan (Arsenal Pulp Press, 2003). Filling the rest of the tables were hipsters in zip-up sweatshirts and Chuck Taylor All Stars, a young father in a shirt and tie with his two children, construction workers wearing Carhartt overalls, and women with trendy bags and knee-high leather boots. All were reading. Here was a microcosm of the store: A diversity of people and interests, sure, but what's most important in Powell's is neither image nor decor but the books themselves.

This is not to say that the store doesn't have a unique vibe. Like Michael Powell himself, there is a straightforwardness to Powell's that puts a person at ease. When the owner and I met, he was dressed casually in jeans and a pullover sweater. And though he had to attend a black-tie community event later that night, he was generous with his time, walking me through both the history of the business and the store itself—how the portion of the building with terrazzo floors had originally been an American Motors dealership; how when they built the newer sections of the store, more than a decade ago, they'd intentionally left the concrete floors bare because the industrial feel not only complemented the plain, pine bookcases but also added to the laid-back atmosphere; and how proud he is that their foreign-language section alone accommodates more than thirty thousand titles.

Michael Powell's philosophy on bookselling is simple: He wants to provide people with books. He has no interest in telling people what to read. Nor would he ever judge a person by the type of books she purchases. New or used, dime-store paperback or first-edition hardcover, manga or metaphysics, all are equally at home on his shelves.

This sense of equality permeates every aspect of the Powell's business model, from the practice of shelving used and new books side by side in each section, to the store's long-standing advocacy on free-speech issues, to the fact that its five hundred employees are unionized and have a matching 401(k) plan. Likewise, Powell may be the boss, but it's clear that he also sees himself as a fellow employee. When we left the downtown location and he drove me across town to the former ball-bearing warehouse that is now the site of the online bookselling operations, no one had to "look busy" when the owner arrived. Instead, they chatted with him as we walked through the facility, offering updates on their various ongoing projects, including ideas for how best to recycle used packaging materials. The warehouse, which feels like an airplane hangar but with the sound of jazz floating in the air, processes up to three thousand online orders daily. And 70 percent of those are single-title orders, a fact that amazes Powell, a logical man who never ceases to be surprised or impressed by his customers, even when they pay more than twenty dollars to have a four-
dollar book shipped overnight. It makes him wonder aloud how he can better meet their needs.

This, then, might be the trait that best characterizes Michael Powell: curiosity. He is endlessly curious about the world, about his employees' ideas, about what his customers want to read, and about innovative ways to do business. It is a trait that has served him well during his last four decades of bookselling. And though he'll officially hand over the reins of the business to his daughter, Emily, in July, when he turns seventy, one gets the sense that Powell will always be dreaming of how to connect books and people. Because it's clear that he loves them both.  

How did you become a bookseller?
In the mid-sixties I ran a little student co-op [at the University of Chicago] where students could sell textbooks and other books on consignment. I also rode my bike around to various thrift shops in the general area and went to the Sunday morning flea market called Maxwell Street—which was very famous in its day in Chicago—to buy books and put them on consignment. Then I sold books by catalogue for a couple years to university libraries, mostly out-of-print social science and history, before I opened my first store in 1970, in Chicago.

Early on, I was thinking of opening a store in Santa Fe, New Mexico, because my wife and I had traveled to Santa Fe and saw it for the first time and everybody falls in love with Santa Fe the first time. She was being offered a job as a Montessori teacher there and I was going to open a bookstore when I got a phone call from a mentor in Hyde Park, in Chicago. He wanted to move his store because he'd been attacked by a customer.

He'd found a new location that was closer to campus, and the reason it was currently vacant was that the Weathermen had firebombed its previous occupant out of existence and he didn't want to go back into it, he was too nervous. And the university—well, not exactly the university, but whoever was in charge of organizing these things—had approached my friend. However, the space was too big for him; he wanted to take only half of it. So he said to me, "You take half and do mostly paperbacks, and I'll do hardbacks." And I said, "I could do that, but I don't have the money." My wife says I was always good for twenty bucks but never for a hundred. And he said, "There are some professors who would like to talk to you about that; they're kind of the patron saints of bookstores." There were three of them: Morris Janowitz, Edward Shils, and the third one was Saul Bellow. Morris Janowitz, who was the lead, came to me and said, "What would you need?" I had no idea. So I said—and this is, remember, 1970—I said, "Probably three thousand dollars." And he said, "We can do that. We can loan you three thousand dollars." Then I said, "But, you know, I've got a problem. I don't know how quickly this will get up and running. And there's all the rent." So he said, "We can help with rent, too, for a little while." Rent was, I think, a hundred dollars a month. So, okay, now they're rehabbing the building and there's some time before I can occupy it. So my wife and I take a thousand of the three thousand and we travel across the country to Oregon to visit my folks. [Laughter.]

When we were back in Chicago, I took the remaining two thousand dollars and bought some books. A friend and I built some shelves, and we opened. Like I was saying, it was a small, small store. But we did well. The students, of course, liked used paperbacks. They thought that was great. At some point my neighbor moved away and I took his space. Then there was another business in the back...and when they went away I took that space. So, ultimately, it was about four thousand square feet.

And then my dad [who had come to Chicago to work in the bookstore] went back to Portland in 1971. He opened his shop, moved once into a space of about ten thousand square feet, and had begun to introduce new books into the mix, shelving them side by side with used books. In 1979 he said, "You know, now wouldn't be a bad time if you're interested in coming back." I always thought I would come back. I always thought of myself as an Oregonian, always kept my Oregon driver's license. And I said, "Yeah, I'd like to do that." There had been a huge snowstorm in Chicago that winter; we'd had an infant—she was born in November—and we had to get out of the neighborhood we were in. It wasn't suitable for raising a family, and I'd had it with the weather. So coming back to Oregon sounded great to me.

Well, the night before we left Chicago, my dad called. He said, "I've got some news: We've lost our lease." Our landlord, which was a brewery, had wanted to take the space back and had given us a year to find a new location. So we spent that year searching, and we found the space that is currently Powell's Books. In the mid-eighties, we started opening branch stores. I was always curious about new ways to do things with books; I didn't want just to replicate anything. And one of the questions was if we could do our new-used mix and do it in the suburbs, where everybody's perception was that it would have to be Borders or Barnes & Noble or something.

By that you mean nice carpeting and polished wood, soft lighting—
The whole nine yards. We weren't getting women to our downtown location in the proportions that most people have women as shoppers, perhaps because our area was a little bit edgy.

It was a developing neighborhood?
It was an undeveloped neighborhood—mostly warehouses, wholesalers, and auto repair shops. Kind of funky stuff, but not retail. Not restaurants and bars. Now it's all high-end national and local boutiques, and dozens and dozens of restaurants and bars. It's quite fashionable, I suppose.

In any case, I wanted to see if we could capture a different audience if we opened the store in a suburb, and that went well. And each year for about six years we opened a store. First, we did a travel bookstore downtown in about 1985. Then the Hawthorne District stores in about 1986. Then the cookbook store...somewhere in there we opened a store in the airport, and a technical bookstore. So I was both interested in segmenting books like technical and travel and cooking, and I was also interested in demographics, like urban centers, suburbs, and airports. It sounds like it was planned, but it wasn't. It was just opportunity and impulse. The only one of those that we don't have any longer is the travel store. The Internet took that business away enough to justify not keeping a whole store solely focused on the subject. And the cookbook store sort of morphed into a lifestyle store, with gardening and cooking and interior design. And now we have three stores at the airport.

What did you find with the suburban store that you built to look like Borders or Barnes & Noble?
Well, we were going to build a fairly fancy store in the suburbs—nice white shelving, a tile floor, banners over the aisles, and colors, and so forth and so on. But the aesthetics weren't right. So the first chance we got to get rid of all that, we did.

You shut the whole store down?
We moved it. And when we moved it, we moved it into a larger space. And at that point we went back to wood shelves. Pine wood, cement floor, more of an industrial look. That has always worked for us well downtown. That was my misreading of the 
suburbs—that I had to sort of pretty it up, and I was wrong. We've more recently moved that store into a space double the size—thirty-two thousand square feet. And once again we have a cement floor. In fact, the ceiling has exposed insulation as a sort of architectural touch. It looks very industrial.

Why do you think that works?
People want a calm background for the books. I don't think they need...I think Borders's and Barnes & Noble's message is "Buy the book and get the hell out of here" in some subliminal way. It's too bright, the shelves are low so everybody's watching everybody. You feel very exposed. Our shelves are about twelve feet high. You live in these little alleys, and there's a kind of cozy feel in that that makes it comfortable for customers. And you can sit on the floor, you know, you can spill something on the floor. It's not a big disaster.

You don't have to worry about messing up someone's living room.
No. And the used books look more comfortable in that environment, because they look a little shabbier when they're too exposed. So, that's where we are. In 1994 we went on the Internet with the only inventory we had in the database at that point, which was the technical bookstore. I'd only been up for about a month when I got a letter from England from someone saying, "I was looking for this technical book, and I was told in England it would take six weeks to deliver and would cost me the equivalent of a hundred dollars. So I thought, ‘Well, I'll just check out the Internet and see.' You had the book for forty-five dollars and you could get it to me in three days."

When I read this, I thought, "Holy hell! Here's an opportunity." So we got all our books into a database. We had what we called "the river" and "the lake"—there were all the new books coming every day that had to get entered, but we also had to back enter everything that was currently on the shelves. So it took a year.

Is that lake dried up now?
The lake is now part of the river. And we built up the Internet business to where it was about a fourth of our sales. So we were an early adopter for selling books online. Amazon came along, of course, and blew right past us. But we sell a lot of books via Amazon, and we sell books via eBay and Alibris and AbeBooks in addition to on our own site. We also carry inventories from England and Germany—our books are drop shipped to the customer. We do what we can.

I imagine that most people think of you as being in direct competition with Amazon. But, in fact, you're actually doing a lot of partnership with Amazon?
Well, I don't know. We are in competition at one level, certainly. I'm sure some of our business has turned over to Amazon. But I'm not foolish about it. If there's an opportunity to sell books, I'm going to sell them. Amazon is my opportunity. And we sell some new books there, but mostly used.

So you ship to Amazon and then they repackage and ship them?
No, we package and ship. We can ship in our boxes with our materials inside. So we can brand that shipment. They're good with that. And if somebody just orders a new book from us, we'll usually have a wholesaler fill that order. Ingram or Baker & Taylor drop ship for us in our boxes, so it cuts out shipping to us. That works well. We do the same thing with Gardner Books in England and Lieber in Germany, both wholesalers. And it works. Some of it is hard. It's not easy—a lot of infrastructure crossed with the Internet.

What are some of its particular challenges?
I think everybody, me included, thought the Internet was going to be this miracle way of making money, because for not very much money you could make all these books available around the whole world. Well, people didn't count on all the software writers you need to keep your Web site hot and current, or the editorial work that has to go into maintaining a Web site both in terms of the tracking game and also making it sticky for people to visit and to find value there so that they'll shop with us. Because we don't discount the books, you know. It's a small number—twenty, thirty books—otherwise it's retail. You would think we'd have no business, that people are nuts for ordering books from us.

Because there are cheaper places?
There are cheaper places. And yet, the brand, the interest, whatever...we maintain a good new book sale. I won't say it's growing, but it's steady. There's a lot of price competition in both the used book world and in the new book world. So it's been hard to build that business, but we think we can. We have a lot of people who visit the site but don't stay, and we have to find a way to encourage them to stay. A small percentage of these customers mean a lot to our business. My daughter's working with some consultants to redesign and redeploy our Web strengths. 

The site certainly has a wonderful array of resources—interviews with authors, blogs...
We Tweet; we do everything. We do everything we possibly can with the resources we have. I always say that the people I have working on our Web site are a rounding error for Amazon. Amazon would have thousands of employees dedicated to what I have twenty dedicated to. On the other hand, I have to say we go toe-to-toe with them. They have things we don't have, but we have things they don't have. Sometimes they have them pretty fast after we have them, but we think of ourselves as innovators.

One of these recent innovations is our online buyback. Anyone in the U.S. can go to our Web site, check via a book's ISBN number to see whether or not we want to buy it, and then find out how much we want to pay for it. We'll pay the freight; all you have to do is box it, print out our label and packing list, and ship it in. Once it's received and we've checked the condition, we'll pay you via PayPal, or you can get virtual credit, which you can spend as you will. That has given us a pretty hefty flow of books.

So even after paying shipping costs it's still worthwhile for you to buy these books?

Yeah. In order to maintain our inventory, we can't rely only on books bought in Portland. We've always relied on a certain number of books being bought elsewhere in the country, whether they're from store inventories or private collections. Well, that's an expensive way to buy books. You have to fly people there to look at them, then you have to fly people there to box them, and then you have to pay the shipping in. Also, you usually have to take everything, which means you're handling a lot of books you don't want. So the online buyback is great because theoretically we want all those books. And you don't have to go anywhere to get them. And the customer boxes everything up. At the moment, Amazon doesn't do that. There are some people who do, but they're not major players. So that's given us at least a temporary advantage in source of books.

I'd like to go back and talk a little bit about the operation of the main store. In addition to the industrial look and feel of the space, another way that Powell's is different from most bookstores is that you mix new and used books on the shelves. Why did you decide to do this?
Well, we started as a used books company. My dad introduced new books in the late seventies, and his mantra was two of everything and three of nothing. So when a local writer like Jean M. Auel published her first book, we had just two copies. Then we bought a bunch of tables from Dalton's, and they asked, "What are you going to put on these tables?" And I said, "Stacks of...something." So that's when we got into the new arrival business.

But now we have about three hundred thousand volumes in the main store, as well as however many in the other stores. It's a substantial part of our business. In dollars, roughly 50 percent of our total business is new books, about 40 percent is used books, and then 10 percent is magazines, cards, and sidelines.

On average, bookstores make about 40 percent on each book they sell. Yet you've managed to nudge that up to nearly 44 percent. Considering that these percentages are before operational expenses, a small difference like this can mean the difference between staying open and going bankrupt. How did you achieve this?
You know, when you're done, you're always plus or minus. Your minus can be a lot, but your plus is hardly ever more than 2 percent after costs. And that's before you make any capital reinvestment. Because we're a larger business, we tend to order in volumes that allow us to get the maximum discount. And we do one other thing: We ship all our books to a central warehouse and then we distribute. I don't know if it's Borders or Barnes & Noble, but whatever the discount those stores got for shipping to a central warehouse, the publishers had to match that for us.

I'm sure that being your own distributor also makes things more efficient.
Yeah. We do all central receiving. Once the books are received, they're labeled and then distributed out to each of the stores. So we have our own truck fleet that runs our books around.

With used books, on the other hand, you've said that your average is closer to 65 percent. Is that also something you've been able to nudge up in similar ways, or is that number static?
We have slowly, over time, pushed that up about five points, either by paying less or controlling inventory better, and by making fewer buying mistakes. In the used-book world the risk is that you're going to buy something that you already have too many copies of, or that sales have evaporated for, or it's a book you had once and never sold. Now computers can tell you all that, so while we don't check every book we buy at the moment we buy it, if there's any doubt about the book we can scan it and see its history, the current inventory level, sales history, and make a judgment based on that. So I think our rate of having to pull things from the shelves has dropped considerably.

What's hurting us at the moment is this move away from people buying new hardbacks. You've probably heard this elsewhere, but in this downturn many people are avoiding a twenty-five-dollar book and moving, in our case, to used books. This has meant that we can try to keep our dollar volume up by boosting the units we're selling, because used books are cheaper, but of course the labor involved doesn't go away.

Or the overhead or the cost of the building.
Right. But the overall dollars have dropped because you're not selling that twenty-five-dollar book. Fewer dollars are coming in. So it's been a challenge. And we've had to do several things in the course of the last year to accommodate that.

Such as?
Well, we had to reduce the number of people working in the company, which we did through not filling positions when people left.

But no one was let go?
No one was let go, no. At one moment we were within two weeks of seriously considering it, but then the numbers looked like they maybe didn't require it, so we backed off. You don't do that casually. You don't turn people loose in this economic environment. I really didn't want to do it, and fortunately we didn't have to. We had twelve months of down business. But [last] September we had our first up month, so that was certainly good news.

What do you think accounted for that?
People are buying more books! I don't know what to say.

Are you a bellwether for the economic recovery?
Well, I hope so. It's not like spending money on cars or houses, but if they're feeling comfortable enough to do that...I mean, listen, they have an alternative. First of all, they can choose not to read. They can go to the library, they can buy fewer books, whatever. But the fact that the customers are back feels great.

Some people have suggested that it's not the fact that Amazon or big-box stores like Walmart and Target are selling books that accounts for many independent stores' losing their footing, but rather it's a lack of readers. Do you feel that's the case?
No, I'm not a subscriber to that. I understand the theory. The theory is that there are only so many hours in the day, and so if you're playing computer games or tweeting or searching the Internet or going to a movie or watching TV, you haven't got time left over for reading. And, yeah, that makes perfectly good sense. Yet we are selling more books. [Last] September we sold more books than we did a year [earlier] by a fairly sensational number. They were cheaper books, but there were more of them.

Long run? I'm not a predictor of the future. I don't know. Will the Kindle and the Sony Reader, or print on demand, or some other phenomenon we haven't thought of yet, erode our business? It's certainly possible. Nothing is forever. And there's no way to say that somebody's new vision of the future won't force us to reshape our vision. But I think as long as we're alert and pay attention and find ways to adapt, then we'll be okay.

Let's talk specifically about electronic books. Do they affect your business?
We sell them. Been doing that for the better part of ten years.

Really?
Yeah. There just weren't very many books and they weren't great and we didn't sell a lot of them, though there have been people trying to do this for a long time. And, you know, it's a small part of our business. But we're positioned to make it a bigger part if that happens.

Now, I want to go back a minute. People always say, "Well, there's this way of doing business and then there's Powell's way of doing business." But I want to point out that I got on the Internet because there was one guy on my staff who came to me and said, "I can put the technical books on the Internet. I need ten thousand dollars to do that." The money wasn't for himself, but for the technology. And I said, "Seems good to me." At the time, Barnes & Noble and Borders were opening stores all around me. My wagons were circled and they attacked from the suburbs, these giant stores. And I thought, "If there's any way to leap over those stores and reach a broader audience, there's nothing better than this thing called the Internet." And I was very enthusiastic. And so for ten thousand dollars—which is a lot of money, I appreciate that—and his time, we got to play. But it's not like somebody handed me ten million dollars and said, "Here, go invest this in the book business." We have built every brick, every stone—every element of the system is a result of organic growth.

In addition to building this business from the ground up, your family has always played an important role in the process. Your father came to Chicago to work in the first store, and now your daughter Emily is involved.
Yes. Emily is going to take over in July.

How long has she been moving into this role?
Probably four years now. She was director of used books for a while, and she worked to get our minds back into the used book world. 

What do you mean?
Well, when the economy started to go bad, we told ourselves that we needed to get more used books on the shelves. That meant changing some of the ways of channeling books to the stores and also boosting the volume. For the last year she's been in charge of the Internet marketing world, with the goal of taking a fairly flat Internet business and seeing it grow. She just finished an executive MBA, and one of the faculty members from her program, along with another fellow he knows, are acting as consultants. So she's been working with them to redirect the energies of staff, reorganize staff, and redesign the Web site, and to do things that make it easier to use, more intuitive. We've always won awards for the content on our site, but I don't think anybody would ever give us an award for the smoothness, or the use of the page. Now we're trying to make it a more intuitive process to use, and that always involves a fair amount of rewrite on software, so you can't do it overnight. But you can do it. So she's been working on that and doing a great job.

Having grown up in a bookstore, she must have a familiarity with this world that few people possess. To say nothing of her commitment, since it's a family business.
There's a great story about Emily. When she was about eight or nine, she and I were doing Christmas cash register work. I would open the book and read the price, and then she would key it in the cash register and make change while I bagged the book. A lady came up who was trying to be nice to Emily and said, "When you grow up, are you going to be a cashier?" And Emily, counting out her change, says, "When I grow up, I'm going to own this place." [Laughter.] And by God, she is.

That was never in my mind, as a given. In this day and age, the world beckons. I just told her, "You'd be a damn fool not to kick the tires that had been good to us. I don't ask or expect you to go in this direction, but I think you'd be foolish not to give it a shot." And out of the blue one day she called from San Francisco and said, "You know, I'm ready to take that shot if you're ready."

Was she in college at the time?
No, she was working in San Francisco. She had a boyfriend down there and she was in a variety of things—she was an apprentice to a maker of wedding cakes, then worked as an assistant to the head of a law firm for a couple years. And, you know, she enjoyed San Francisco very much, but I think that gave her the motivation to say, "Well, I think it's time to try the book business." She had worked here for a year earlier, right out of college, but she needed to really get out and try something else in the world for a while.

How hands on or off will you be once you retire?
Well, I'll tell you a story. I had someone like you come to interview me and he said, "So when you retire, what will you do?" And I said, "Well, you know, I'll probably go out to the warehouse and process books, get them out of boxes. I like doing that." And he laughed. So I said, "What's funny about that? You don't think I can do that?" And he said "No, no. I was out on the floor interviewing one of your employees and I said, ‘What will Michael Powell do when his daughter takes over?' And he said, ‘He'll go over to the warehouse and process books.'" So I guess I'm known for my limited talents.

Somehow I'd like to stay involved. You know, you learn a lot, and business is complex, and you can't know everything and you can't be everywhere. Just walking around you see things and you say, "I wonder why they're doing it that way? That doesn't seem as efficient." Or, "Do they know that people in the other store are doing it differently?" So I think it'll be helpful to have someone with an educated eye watching the business from the inside, to see where those opportunities are. For example, there are several things we're doing by hand that we ought to be doing in a more automated way. At the moment, those are opportunities. You're always working for productivity efficiencies because your costs go up and you've got to keep your costs and revenues in balance. The casual approach we had to the business fifteen years ago just doesn't work. Certainly with the high investment in technology we have and the high investment in inventory, we better be very grounded in what we're doing, and alert.

You came into this neighborhood when it was mostly just car repair shops and warehouses, and now it's become more of a boutique area. Do you think Powell's had a hand in that transition? I imagine that most people must think of you as an anchor in this community.
Well, I think we're an anchor for the city. That may sound immodest, but somebody's got to say it. If you have a relative come into town, or a friend come into town, and they say "What is there to do in Portland?" If you name three things, one of them is going to be Powell's. Because the city's proud of it. You don't even have to be a reader—you just want to show it off. Biggest bookstore in America, maybe the biggest in the world. You know, if you've got the biggest ball of string, people think you're kooky. But if you have the biggest bookstore, it says something positive about the community—that it supports a store that large—and people like that message. And we try to then earn the respect of the community by not just running a good business, but also being involved in the community. I spend a lot of my time on boards and commissions and planning efforts. I chair the streetcar board. We just created what will now be about eight miles of streetcar. We're the first city in America to put new streetcars back in.

Like old-style trolleys?
No, they're modern-looking streetcars, and they're European built. They're not San Francisco cute; they're modern, sleek streetcars. And we move four million people each year. I've also been involved in dozens and dozens of committees and commissions, some in the arts and some in social services and some in politics. Not partisan politics, but political efforts to do things or to stop things from happening, all aimed at trying to fulfill the vision of a city that is a twenty-four-hour-a-day city, that works, that's attractive and great to do business in, and great to live in. I think people respect the work that we do in that area. People will stop me and say, "I love your store," but sometimes they'll stop me and say, "I love what you do for the community," and they're referring to a broader level of involvement. People ask me if it ever gets tiring, being stopped by people. But I think no; when they stop, that's problematic. That means we're doing something that's not working. I get involved in political things, but they're almost always around censorship or involved with access to books. Oregon has a very strong constitutional defense of books, but we also have the same element of the population that would like to, for a variety of reasons, control that flow. You know: "Don't put gay books in schools, don't let anyone under the age of eighteen be exposed to bad books." But we win those fights.

Still, they usually take a lot of energy and some money, and with the first anti-gay measure in Portland—Proposition 9—businesses were very closely involved. I have gay staff, of course, and friends who are gay, and they challenged me. There was an element of that legislation that involved not letting libraries, specifically school libraries, have gay-related materials. But we just turned the store into a poster board for that issue, and we won it, and we were very proud of that.

So you helped defeat it at the ballot.
Yep. There were two efforts and we won both of those. Not by overwhelming numbers, but we won. If we can define the issue as one of censorship, and they can define the issue as perversity, and you let that go in a challenge, they'll win. But Oregonians don't like censorship, and again I say not by overwhelming numbers, but we do win. And so we get involved in those issues and they seem to come along with certain regularity, every four or five years. Otherwise most of the stuff I get involved in is more planning. I don't get involved in partisan politics as a company. In fact I keep the company very separate from that. Personally I do get involved, but I try to keep it as separate as I possibly can.

As a citizen, not an owner.
Yeah, yeah.