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OldScribe2000


Jul 11, 2009, 6:15 PM

Post #401 of 1018 (17882 views)
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     Re: [bighark] Northwestern University [In reply to]  

I don't think it's fair to believe the Program Director can meet with every prospective student, but SOMEONE should be there to answer your questions.

We recently had a student visit our program, and three associate Creative Writing professors AND the Program Director met with her. They allowed her to attend undergraduate and graduate workshops, and answered all her questions. They were all very polite and professional from what I was able to see.



In Reply To
From Columbia College's Fiction Writing Website: The Graduate Program Director is happy to meet with prospective students....

Anyway, I don't smell any entitlement or presumption here: just an eager student who's curious about the program.



ColBuendia71


Jul 15, 2009, 10:13 PM

Post #402 of 1018 (17743 views)
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     Another List [In reply to]  

Hi there, I'm preparing my list of schools for the 2010 application process. My primary focus is funding and secondly, having a good mix of schools to increase my chances of getting in somewhere, though I know there are no guarantees. The prestige of the program is not as important to me: I would just really like time to write. Based on the bit of research that I've done, I really like Syracuse, but it's pretty competitive, right? I'm trying to get this list down to 10 or so schools. Let me know if, based on the criteria above, there are any that you would add or take away. Also, I haven't been able to find what the application costs are for most of these programs. What is the average cost per application?

Arizona State
Brooklyn College
Hunter College
Indiana University
New School
Notre Dame
Penn State
Purdue
Southern Illinois
Syracuse
Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
University of Minnesota
University of Oregon
University of Pittsburgh
University of Wisconsin, Madison


insertbrackets

e-mail user

Jul 16, 2009, 3:20 AM

Post #403 of 1018 (17707 views)
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     Re: [katelauren] Choosing an MFA Program 2010 [In reply to]  

Hi Kate,

I want to definitely insist you apply to Ohio State University. I am going to be going there this fall in poetry and I have to say it is a fabulous program, I chose it over Wisconsin and the University of Florida. The funding is incredible (full tuition + funding), it's three full years, and Kathy Fagan, Andrew Hudgins, and Henri Cole constitute a stellar poetry faculty. Most of all, though, the reason I am going is because the program's students are amazing and have such a strong sense of community amongst them.

It may also interest you to know that OSU only received 50 or so apps in poetry when I applied last year, and made eight offers intending to accept six people. Like others have said, there are no such things as safety schools in the MFA world, but OSU still seems underapplied to given its excellent faculty and alumni success. I'd say its a keeper!

Let me know if you want to know any more about the program.

-Tory


Who told you I was a racist? Was it...a minority?
-T-Rex, qwantz.com Dinosaur Comics


sallysassypants


Jul 20, 2009, 8:09 PM

Post #404 of 1018 (17587 views)
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     Re: [insertbrackets] Choosing an MFA Program 2010 [In reply to]  

Just discovered this forum while trying to create my shortlist of schools to which I will apply.

Has anyone had success with programs that are open to genre fiction writers? It seems a lot of the focus is on literary fiction, and while that is an interest, I want to approach it from within the mystery genre.

I'd also be interested in programs where the focus isn't on high-language and is open to more everyday language.

I really want to avoid programs where the focus is on being intellectual while forsaking the entertainment value of literature.

Thanks!!!


bighark


Jul 21, 2009, 10:43 AM

Post #405 of 1018 (17511 views)
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     Re: [sallysassypants] Choosing an MFA Program 2010 [In reply to]  

Hi, Sally, welcome to the forum.

I don't know of any MFA programs whose curriculum involves intense training in genre-based writing, but that doesn't mean that writers of mystery or westerns or bodice-rippers don't get MFAs.

If the writing in your application is strong, you can get accepted anywhere, even places that say they're not crazy about genre writing.

Here's the thing, though: the MFA is advanced, terminal degree. There's going to be rigor. You're going read, and if you want to be a good writer, you have to read widely. Getting exposure to books and writers you may not have found on your own is one of the best things MFA programs have to offer.

There's a lot to learn from genre writing. Who doesn't want to write entertaining, well-plotted stories? Heck, I don't think there's an MFA program in the country that doesn't have at least one mystery/crime/detective class in their catalog, and that's because those genres have something to teach about narrative structure, dialog, and plot.

I would advise you to abandon the notion of "high-language," especially if that's something you say you want to avoid. What does that mean, anyway? Is Hemmingway high-language? Junot Diaz? Denis Johnson? Your writing aesthetic can include simple, unadorned language. You can be coarse or even vulgar and still make great sentences. You should be making great sentences. You're a writer.

Similarly, I hate to break it to you, but you're an intellectual already. You write. You're thinking about applying for an advanced degree. If I were you, I'd just go with it. Embrace your intellect. Care about words and writing and stories. You'll be happier.

BH


sallysassypants


Jul 21, 2009, 7:58 PM

Post #406 of 1018 (17447 views)
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     Re: [bighark] Choosing an MFA Program 2010 [In reply to]  

I absolutely agree that I have intellectual intentions, but I want to find a program that supports my interest in the vernacular and genre fiction. Genre is not a dirty word (just read Ursula Le Guin's delightful rant against those who would try to pretend genre needs to be revived by literature). http://www.ursulakleguin.com/Note-ChabonAndGenre.html

My background is in political philosophy and I have been in a program where my research was not supported by the faculty and I would rather not go through that hell again. My writing is influenced by this original research and on a high level deals with the intersections of fiction, politics, and the popular political imagination.

So I seek a program where my interest in genre and popular writing is not discounted.

And yes, I want the literature part, too. I'm not looking to be Janet Evanovich, but I appreciate what she does.


LesK
Les
e-mail user

Jul 21, 2009, 8:40 PM

Post #407 of 1018 (17438 views)
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     Re: [sallysassypants] Choosing an MFA Program 2010 [In reply to]  

 
Though I do agree with previous posters that you could likely get some level of support at virtually any school...assuming the faculty likes your work well enough to admit you, you might want to look at Florida International U for your list.

I went across town to Miami, and seem to remember much hullabaloo about students penning a thesis or two that became bestsellers. More, I think the fiction faculty definitely has a popular fiction slant.


sallysassypants


Jul 21, 2009, 9:34 PM

Post #408 of 1018 (17424 views)
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     Re: [LesK] Choosing an MFA Program 2010 [In reply to]  

It's reassuring to know that MFA programs tend to offer more support for your work than I've encountered in traditional graduate programs.

And I've heard Florida International University from several people since making my initial post. I will put it on my list.

But I'd rather not put all my eggs in one basket -- any other good options? I'm planning on applying to a few top tier schools (and FIU, of course!), but I'd like to round out my list with some good, but maybe not so competitive programs.

I live in Detroit, so Michigan is absolutely on my list (but competitive). Otherwise, I am not particularly tied down to my current location so can cast a pretty wide net.

A supportive faculty is my biggest consideration, followed by funding, and then location.


Toaster


Aug 5, 2009, 3:32 AM

Post #409 of 1018 (17164 views)
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     Re: [sallysassypants] Choosing an MFA Program 2010 [In reply to]  

Sally, you may want to look into low-res programs. Stonecoast in Maine specifically offers a specialization in popular fiction along with courses specifically in detective/mystery writing, if I remember correctly. Most of the full-res programs discourage "genre" writing and instead would have you focus on just writing, and writing well. Otherwise, yes, FIU would be a good fit for you. Dennis Lehane (Mystic River, Gone Baby Gone) is an alumn from FIU. Western Michigan and Northern Michigan are supposedly good programs as well. You might want to see what the faculty there have written; if you like the faculty writing than chances are the program is a good fit.

That being said...

I'm in the middle of researching MFA programs for my fiancé. I've helped him put together 24 schools that fit his criteria; the task now is getting the list down to 15. I've compiled all the data we need with one glaring exception; acceptance rates!

If you have any information about the acceptance rates at these schools, please help!

The schools are:

University of Memphis
MSU at Mankato
Virginia Commonwealth University
Old Dominion University
University of New Mexico
Louisiana State University

I just cannot find hard data on these schools, and it's nearly impossible for us to make final decisions without some idea of the selectivity, especially since these are all supposedly higher-odds admits... or so I've heard.

Thanks so much in advance!


whyGA77


Aug 9, 2009, 4:47 PM

Post #410 of 1018 (16983 views)
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     Re: [Tabby] Choosing an MFA Program 2010 [In reply to]  

Does anyone know anything about Chicago State? What I've seen is great (app fee is cheap, tuition is low, location is great) but I can't find much about acceptance rates or rankings on The Suburban Ecstasies or elsewhere.

Anyone know anything? Other than that, my list for 2010 is as follows (for fiction):

George Mason
Virginia Commonwealth University
UNC Greensboro
NC State
Columbia College Chicago
Chicago State

I'm thinking of adding one or two more before I'm done, but app fees add up and I'm living on a preschool teacher's salary. Good luck to all of you, and I'm sure we'll be hearing a lot from each other as the season rolls on!


bighark


Aug 9, 2009, 6:03 PM

Post #411 of 1018 (16972 views)
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     Re: [whyGA77] Choosing an MFA Program 2010 [In reply to]  

I'm a great admirer of Chicago State. I surmise you haven't heard much about it because it's not all that competitive, and it tends to fall off the radar of most observers. It's also been rumored to have had some troubles over the years. You may want to write the program directly to ask your questions. If I were you, I'd also see if you couldn't be put in touch with a student.

Having said that, if you want a strong training in African American fiction and poetry, I can't think of a better place.

If you're not a native Chicagoan, be aware that Chicago State is at the southern-most part of the city. It's twelve miles south of the downtown area, and six miles south of the University of Chicago.


umass76


Aug 10, 2009, 10:05 PM

Post #412 of 1018 (16888 views)
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     Re: [whyGA77] Choosing an MFA Program 2010 [In reply to]  

YGA77,

I don't have the specific admissions data for Chicago State, but--FWIW--CSU tied for 132nd (out of 140 full-residency programs nationally) in popularity in the TSE poll; i.e., it tied for last in that particular measure. To be clear, I'm not saying that that tells us something about the quality of the program (Chicago State doesn't really advertise themselves well; they're initially hard to find on the web, too, and this could play a role in their placement) but rather the likelihood that they receive a lot of applications (sure, I might argue that it does say something about cohort quality, but that's a different conversation altogether).

From personal knowledge, I'll say that schools ranked, say, around 100th in the TSE rankings are getting around 50 applicants total (in both genres) each year. That suggests Chicago State may be getting between 30-40 applicants, in two genres, annually. Given the standard 3:2 breakdown among fiction and poetry applicants nationally and at most programs, that would give us 18 to 24 annual fiction applicants to CSU, and 12 to 16 poetry applicants. If we assume (conservatively) that CSU is tied for the smallest program in the U.S. (with Wisconsin, Virginia Tech, and a few others) at 3 students/genre each year, that would still give us a pretty high yield-exclusive acceptance rate: 20% to 25% in poetry (yield-exclusive), and 12% to 16% in fiction (yield-exclusive).

Figuring yield and (again) an incredibly conservative yield rate (50%), that means 40% to 50% of the poets who apply are accepted, and 25% to 35% of the fiction-writers (approximately). But given that CSU probably isn't as small as I've said, and may well not have as good a yield as I've supposed, a more reasonable estimate would be that CSU accepts 75% of the poets who apply, and perhaps 60% of the fiction-writers.

Sorry for the obsessive details, but hey, that's what I do. This is my area of specialty. Be well,

Seth
Abramson Leslie Consulting


chapelhell


Aug 10, 2009, 11:52 PM

Post #413 of 1018 (16875 views)
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     Re: [umass76] Choosing an MFA Program 2010 [In reply to]  


In Reply To
Sorry for the obsessive details, but hey, that's what I do. This is my area of specialty. Be well, Seth

Hi Seth,

Given your love for obsessive details, how about factoring in state income taxes next time you revise the funding rankings of MFA programs. Stipends are taxable income, after all, so it does make some (very, very) minor difference that Florida and Texas, e.g., have no state income tax while other states have income taxes ranging anywhere from 5-10+% (in most cases, state income tax is much less progressive than federal, so being a low-income grad student won't necessarily yield any relief from a state tax burden).

Also, I'm not sure, but I don't think your figures for the University of Florida include the fact that MFA students, while given "full" tuition remission, are responsible for fees, currently on the order of $750 per year, but almost guaranteed to rise, by an uncertain percentage, each year.

I mean, you said you like obsessive, right?



Tabby


e-mail user

Aug 11, 2009, 12:30 AM

Post #414 of 1018 (16870 views)
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     Re: [chapelhell] Choosing an MFA Program 2010 [In reply to]  

And Montana, no sales tax!


http://www.kellykathleenferguson.com


umass76


Aug 11, 2009, 1:37 AM

Post #415 of 1018 (16861 views)
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     Re: [chapelhell] Choosing an MFA Program 2010 [In reply to]  

CH,

A very good point. At present no Cost of Living Calculator I've come across figures in state income taxes, so that would take a separate strand of research to determine. That said, it's not impossible, and I've certainly thought about doing it, particularly as I have this. So, yes, that's something to look for in the next funding rankings (2011, to be completed in 2010). As to university fees, it's a much tougher question: many graduate schools don't advertise them, and even when they do it's not always clear which fees are applicable to all students, which only to undergraduates, which only to students with computers or who play sports, etcetera. Most times that I've come across fee recitations, the amount has been de minimis--usually $250 to $500, which, while not nothing, doesn't typically amount to more than 2% to 3% of the value of a stipend. And because almost all programs assess some fees, it's not like we're comparing a school with $0 in fees to one with $500, but one with $250 in fees to one with $500 (meaning the actual difference, for the sake of rankings at least, is more like 1%). Still, $750 is unusually high, so I'll look into it. Thanks for the heads up.

Be well,
Seth
Abramson Leslie Consulting


chapelhell


Aug 11, 2009, 2:17 AM

Post #416 of 1018 (16856 views)
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     Re: [umass76] Choosing an MFA Program 2010 [In reply to]  

Hi Seth,

Something strange seems to be happening with Florida's funding (or my brain).

To clarify, the "fees" I was talking about were not ordinary fees like a student activity fee, etc., that all schools charge, but something that was specifically mentioned on Florida's MFA program web site, namely $42 per credit hour in fees (basically a university's backhanded form of charging extra tuition).

Emphasis on was because now I can't find that on Florida's MFA web site. More importantly, I'm almost certain that a week or two ago their web site mentioned a stipend amount, and it was on the order of $13,000 (which is around what your data shows). Perhaps I just imagined that?

At any rate, there is now no specific information about the value of stipends given to MFA students on the MFA program's site. There is only this bit from the English Department's site: "Assistantships currently range in stipend from $9,300 (MA and MFA) to $10,200–$11,400 (PhD)."

$9,300 is quite a lot less than the $13,365 that you have listed for Florida.

Not sure what the deal is. Maybe slashed budgets? I know Florida State's CW program has had to make some fairly drastic cutbacks.

-


chapelhell


Aug 11, 2009, 2:24 AM

Post #417 of 1018 (16855 views)
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     Re: [umass76] Choosing an MFA Program 2010 [In reply to]  

Ah, I found the missing fees info; it was in a PDF file that you can download from the Florida MFA program's site.


Quote
Your tuition waiver pays the tuition on 9 credit hours worth of tuition during fall/spring and 3 credit hours during summer. Students pay fees on the order of $42.00 per credit hour. Starting in 2009 these fees will be deducted from the student’s paycheck.


I am still puzzled by the mystery/discrepancy regarding the stipend amount, which is actually a much more important matter.


umass76


Aug 11, 2009, 3:59 AM

Post #418 of 1018 (16848 views)
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     Re: [chapelhell] Choosing an MFA Program 2010 [In reply to]  

CH,

Yes, there's been much talk of cutbacks in the Florida public university system. This must be one result of that, as my UF numbers were well-sourced. I will go look at the website to see the new numbers for myself and will adjust UF's ranking accordingly. Be well, and thanks again for the update!

Cheers,
Seth
Abramson Leslie Consulting



gg.scholastica
Gena Goodman


Aug 11, 2009, 7:57 PM

Post #419 of 1018 (16711 views)
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     The oh-so-coveted 18th spot [In reply to]  

So, finally, after 3+ years of watching people apply, I'm giving it a go. I've decided on sending out 18 fiction applications (yes, I know I might be erring on the side of excess. But the fees aren't going to break me, so what the hell? I might as well :) ). The list is mostly finalized, except for the 18th spot, for which 3 programs: University of South Florida; University of Central Florida; and University of South Carolina are competing.

Almost all of my other schools are fully-funded and on the smaller side of the admission rate scale. While I'm aware there is no such thing as a "safety school", I am trying to give my list a few universities with better acceptance rates. I currently live in Florida, and enjoy Tampa and Orlando, the respective cities of USF and UCF. They are both very new programs, however... which might mean a fresh outlook and might mean a still-developing system. USC worries me because of their habit of accepting/rejecting late (past April 15th) and their lack of clear funding information (in terms of $ amounts).

Any opinions for the fiction applicant on that last spot? USF, UCF, or USC?


(This post was edited by gg.scholastica on Aug 11, 2009, 7:59 PM)


OldScribe2000


Aug 12, 2009, 12:50 AM

Post #420 of 1018 (16671 views)
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     Re: [gg.scholastica] The oh-so-coveted 18th spot [In reply to]  

Have you posted the schools you've already chosen? I couldn't find them. I don't know how you're doing financially, but this might be a good time to stick close to home. I think the economy is showing signs of life, but I believe it'll still be a long recovery. There looks to be some good schools in Florida, your home right now, so I would go with those over USC. I mean, USC is USC, but the cost of living in SoCal + poor funding + late notification = you have better options.

Good luck!





In Reply To
So, finally, after 3+ years of watching people apply, I'm giving it a go. I've decided on sending out 18 fiction applications (yes, I know I might be erring on the side of excess. But the fees aren't going to break me, so what the hell? I might as well :) ). The list is mostly finalized, except for the 18th spot, for which 3 programs: University of South Florida; University of Central Florida; and University of South Carolina are competing.

Almost all of my other schools are fully-funded and on the smaller side of the admission rate scale. While I'm aware there is no such thing as a "safety school", I am trying to give my list a few universities with better acceptance rates. I currently live in Florida, and enjoy Tampa and Orlando, the respective cities of USF and UCF. They are both very new programs, however... which might mean a fresh outlook and might mean a still-developing system. USC worries me because of their habit of accepting/rejecting late (past April 15th) and their lack of clear funding information (in terms of $ amounts).

Any opinions for the fiction applicant on that last spot? USF, UCF, or USC?



gg.scholastica
Gena Goodman


Aug 12, 2009, 2:31 PM

Post #421 of 1018 (16611 views)
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     Re: [OldScribe2000] The oh-so-coveted 18th spot [In reply to]  

I hadn't yet, but I will do so now... it just seems really early in the "MFA season" if you know what I mean.

But here goes... for Fiction...

Michener Center (UT Austin)
U. of Alabama
Vanderbilt
U. of Houston
Iowa Writer's Workshop (of course)
U. of Virginia
Cornell
Washington U. in St. Louis
Syracuse
Old Dominion
U. of Florida
U. of Arizona
George Mason U.
U. of Arkansas
U. of Mississippi (Ole Miss!)
Louisiana State U.
San Diego State U.

18: UCF, USF, USC? Or maybe take out SDSU and take both UCF and USF?

I know some of those programs are more poetry leaning, but here's hoping that means less fiction submissions. Open to all opinions. Though Old Scribe, the advice on staying close to home sounds quite sound to me... unless I receive a significant stipend from one of these fellows, I can't see myself being able to move to some of these fine cities.

-G


OldScribe2000


Aug 12, 2009, 5:13 PM

Post #422 of 1018 (16586 views)
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     Re: [gg.scholastica] The oh-so-coveted 18th spot [In reply to]  

I can give you inside information on two of those schools. I know Arkansas inside and out. For starters, I took my B.A. in English/Creative Writing there. Second, I work there. As a matter of fact, I'm in the Arkansas Student Union right now.

Fayetteville, Arkansas is a nice place to live. Low cost of living, low crime rate, friendly people, etc. The Creative Writing Department is as solid as they come. Geoff Brock, Michael Heffernan, Ellen Gilchrist, Molly Giles and Skip Hays. I mean, need I say more? Molly told me she's leaving at the end of this year, however. I don't know if they'll be able to replace her; money's really tight right now. That's the biggest drawback to the program. You have to teach two sections per semester to earn a tuition waiver and a $1000/month stipend. That's a lot of work, and I've seen several MFA candidates succumb to exhaustion and drop the program. It's a four-year, 60-hour program, after all.

Ole Miss is turning into a top-notch program, mainly because of Beth Ann Fennelly. She took her MFA at Arkansas--which is where I met her--and where she met her husband, Tom Franklin, who also teaches at Ole Miss. Both are great writers and great teachers. Beth Ann really LOVES teaching poetry. It's not something she does because she wants to keep running water and electricity while she writes poetry. Barry Hannah might not be there much longer, and I wouldn't be surprised if she takes the reins when he retires. She graduated from Notre Dame, she's been widely published, and she's totally competent.

I hope this helps.


gg.scholastica
Gena Goodman


Aug 12, 2009, 8:50 PM

Post #423 of 1018 (16558 views)
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     Re: [OldScribe2000] The oh-so-coveted 18th spot [In reply to]  

It is useful. Thank you! Especially in terms of Arkansas... it has a good website in terms of the nuts and bolts, but nothing beats eye-witness experience. Two sections a semester does sound rather strenuous. In terms of Ole Miss, I actually had the honor of meeting both Beth Anne Fennelly and Tom Franklin when they came to Florida for 'Writer's in Paradise", and I spoke with them during some round-table discussions. They had great things to say about each program (the one they attended [Arkansas] and the one at which they taught [Miss]), and were in general extremely sweet people. Tom Franklin has a fiction-writing style that's rather contrary to my own (rough and tumble realism... hunting through the woods, bloody wars, etc) but from discussions with him it doesn't seem to affect his ability to appreciate other sorts of writing, which is always encouraging from a workshop leader.

-G


(This post was edited by gg.scholastica on Aug 12, 2009, 8:51 PM)


OldScribe2000


Aug 13, 2009, 12:46 AM

Post #424 of 1018 (16537 views)
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     Re: [gg.scholastica] The oh-so-coveted 18th spot [In reply to]  

You might as well give Arkansas a shot. The initial "application" process is free. You send in your writing sample, and if they like it they'll give you the green light. If not, at least you didn't waste the $40 to apply. Most of the people in the program are thoughtful that way.

Good luck with all your schools for 2010!


SweetJane


e-mail user

Aug 14, 2009, 6:22 PM

Post #425 of 1018 (16310 views)
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     Re: [chapelhell] Choosing an MFA Program 2010 [In reply to]  


In Reply To

Quote
$9,300 is quite a lot less than the $13,365 that you have listed for Florida.

Not sure what the deal is. Maybe slashed budgets? I know Florida State's CW program has had to make some fairly drastic cutbacks.

-


Hi chapelhell--2009 Florida graduate here.

What happened was, in the transition to a three-year program, Florida went from guaranteeing summer funding for MFAs (so that they could finish up 48 credit hours in two years), to no longer guaranteeing it. A good number of MFAs did end up getting summer teaching appointments, late in the spring, but some did not. Keep in mind that two students per year get an alumni fellowship that guarantees summer paychecks without teaching.

That being said, the funding here overall is now much better than it was during my two years in the program. The back-handed tuition you refer to (which are evil and icky, I think) used to total something around, IIRC, $3000 in two years as we only had 36 out of 48 credit hours covered, and many students were forced to take out loans because of this. I was just talking to some new students and the fees now are, in total, only a couple hundred dollars--apologies that I don't know the exact amount.

Something else that might be relevant to those looking at Florida's financial package: in your second and third year, you're given a 2:1 or 1:2 load, but the paychecks are not prorated, so students need to budget for that. I was able to (easily) get additional teaching through the University Writing Program teaching comp, which brought my teaching load up to 2:2 during my thesis year, but again, this isn't guaranteed, and you have to ask for it.

State budget cuts have really only affected MFAs so far in that we were told not to copy our syllabi on English department computers.

Feel free to get in touch if you have any other questions regarding UF. I'd be happy to help.

Yours,
Phoebe
www.phoebeeating.com

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