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Mar 15, 2008, 11:16 AM

Post #1 of 17 (8607 views)
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Moved Threads? Can't Post

Hi Jason:

I keep seeing new message notifications for these threads (most recently Moved: Mediation), but then these threads/messages seem to disappear or are unreadable. Is this intentional, or perhaps an issue with the site?

Thanks.


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motet
Dana Davis / Moderator
e-mail user

Mar 15, 2008, 2:56 PM

Post #2 of 17 (8594 views)
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Re: [Junior Maas] Moved Threads? [In reply to] Can't Post

No, this is not a site issue. The post was moved. The discussion concerning Christopher Woodman is closed.

But if this is not acceptable, and you wish to continue discussing it, or making unsubstantiated accusations or insinuations concerning the Speakeasy, Poets & Writers Magazine, the Poets & Writers organization, me or any else associated with Poets & Writers, you will need to do that somewhere other than the Speakeasy.

Ample opportunity has been given to everyone to air their agreement and disagreement with the issue of banning patrons.
Ample opportunity has been given to everyone to go on the record with their opinions of P&W and those associated with the organization. If this opportunity has not been sufficient for you, then perhaps the Speakeasy is not the place for you.

In any event, further posts about this will be moved and patrons who persist will lose their privilege to continue posting here.

Dana


pongo
Buy this book!

e-mail user

Mar 15, 2008, 3:36 PM

Post #3 of 17 (8591 views)
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Re: [motet] Moved Threads? [In reply to] Can't Post

This seems as good a place as any to discuss an issue that was raised in an inappropriate topic.

The question was asked, "What happened to the First Amendment?" (Probably not an exact quotation.)

The answer is, of course, a great deal, but none of it relevant to what happens here. The First Amendment, of which I am a great fan, restrains the government from restricting speech. It has not bearing on interactions between individuals or groups of individuals in public or private.

For example, the First Amendment does not protect your right to go up to Mike Tyson and call him a faggot. What protects you in that case is Mike Tyson's fear of prosecution or his commitment to civil behavior. (Neither of them, I'm afraid, very strong, from what I know of him.) If he hits you in response to the perceived insult, he is violating the law, but not the First Amendment.

What protects us in situations not involving the government is just as with Mike Tyson: fear of consequences and commitment to civil behavior. Since there are very few negative consequences to uncivil behavior in online communities, management must retain the right to impose some. Some people, unfortunately, are not bound by a sense of civil behavior. But rudeness is not protected by common civility or by the First Amendment, nor should it be, and those who choose to be (mostly) civil deserve some protection, or isolation, from those who don't.

So I see no problem at all with the management of a private forum exercising some control over who can and cannot speak here. In fact, that control in this form has been pretty moderate in the years I've been here, and has not been (as far as I've been able to see) exercised to control what opinions can be expressed here; it has been limited to the rudeness of some of those expressing opinions, whether those opinions are popular or not.


The Review Mirror, available at www.unsolicitedpress.com

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http://home.comcast.net/~david.m.harris/site/


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Mar 15, 2008, 5:42 PM

Post #4 of 17 (8582 views)
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Re: [motet] Moved Threads? [In reply to] Can't Post

Dana, I think you're confusing me with bluehole.org. I did not advance 'conspiracy theories'. I kept getting notifications that there were new posts, and then there were not any new posts.

My question was for Jason, the tech guy.


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(This post was edited by Junior Maas on Mar 15, 2008, 5:54 PM)


motet
Dana Davis / Moderator
e-mail user

Mar 15, 2008, 5:43 PM

Post #5 of 17 (8581 views)
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Re: [Junior Maas] Moved Threads? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I keep seeing new message notifications for these threads (most recently Moved: Mediation),



With respect to Moved posts in general...if you click on the hot link that says "Moved: and whatever Forum", it will take you to the moved post. Posts are usually moved when they are not on topic for that thread.

Dana


__________



Mar 15, 2008, 5:47 PM

Post #6 of 17 (8579 views)
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Re: [motet] Moved Threads? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, that was fast. For the last few 'moved' threads, I've had no clickable links. That's why I was asking the tech person. I did, however, just find the old, moved, locked thread under 'Mediation'. Sorry. I guess that explains my phantom notifiers. (Computers, I tell you what...)


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(This post was edited by Junior Maas on Mar 15, 2008, 5:56 PM)


motet
Dana Davis / Moderator
e-mail user

Mar 15, 2008, 6:02 PM

Post #7 of 17 (8570 views)
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Re: [Junior Maas] Moved Threads? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I can't speak to the unreferenced " last few 'moved' threads", only to the recent one by Alan.
And since I was the one who moved it, I was the one who answered.
But if you want to wait for the tech guy, it's certainly up to you.

Dana


whimsy
Bill Lindsley

e-mail user

Apr 6, 2008, 4:48 PM

Post #8 of 17 (8023 views)
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Re: [motet] Moved Threads? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am confused about the rationale for moving threads and, in particular, the recent threads moved to "literary magazines" seem less suited for that topic than where they were originally. Unless a discussion is definitively wrong for the topic in which it occurs, and there is a definitively better place for it, why move it? The pen name discussion, for example, is not about "literary magazines" at all, except indirectly (and in that no more so than any discussion about poetry, fiction, or nonfiction written for periodicals would be).

By the way: I have seen, again and again, that it is assumed most patrons here read all the threads. This is not at all true for me. I rarely (as in extremely rarely, by link or reference if at all) even glance at anything in the MFA type threads for example. I am not interested in or involved in a number of the other topics. I am not in pursuit of grants for another example, and never had one, so that is not a topic I have any cause to visit as I am not interested and I do not have anything to contribute to those discussions. There are many other examples of topics in which there is nothing for me to give or take away.


motet
Dana Davis / Moderator
e-mail user

Apr 7, 2008, 3:53 PM

Post #9 of 17 (7990 views)
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Re: [whimsy] Moved Threads? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I am confused about the rationale for moving threads


And you've answered your own question--"Unless a discussion is definitively wrong for the topic in which it occurs, and there is a definitively better place for it, why move it?"


In Reply To

The pen name discussion


Rather than searching for an exisiting discussion, many patrons simply start new threads. This is the reason why some topics have 16 pages of threads, many of which are similar or identical discussions.

The recent discussions of pen names were threads that were concurrently running in both Literary Magazines and in Poetry. There is no one best place for this discussion since the definitively better forums are numerous---Fiction, Non-fiction, Poetry and Literary Magazine. The thread in poetry had three posts. The thread in Lit Mags had a dozen. I moved the poetry discussion of pen names over to the Lit Mag discussion based on the number of existing postings and therefore where I thought most people would continue to look for that conversation.


In Reply To
it is assumed most patrons here read all the threads. This is not at all true for me.


That may not be true for you but most patrons do read most threads. And I know this because when the same post is posted in multiple threads in multiple forums, I get complaints about the spam--both in private messages and by reading people's objections on the board.


whimsy
Bill Lindsley

e-mail user

Apr 8, 2008, 9:29 AM

Post #10 of 17 (7964 views)
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Re: [motet] Moved Threads? [In reply to] Can't Post

The one that really threw me was the "no end in sight" thread, which I was following for awhile and then it was gone, which I subsequently learned was moved to "Literary Magazines" (which I can only guess was because it was initially in reference to the lack of definitive endings in New Yorker stories).

I knew what a good rationale for moving threads would be, what I stated, what you quoted. Not sure what that has to do, if anything, with the moving of a thread like the vibrant one in "no end in sight" from fiction (as it was and continues to be about the composition and structure of fiction).

That is, still a bit confused.

As for not perusing some threads, that was merely a heads up for anyone as well as those administering the site, to not assume that all participants read all discussions, even if most do. I don't. It's not mandatory is it?


motet
Dana Davis / Moderator
e-mail user

Apr 8, 2008, 9:58 PM

Post #11 of 17 (7923 views)
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Re: [whimsy] Moved Threads? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Not sure what that has to do, if anything, with the moving of a thread like the vibrant one in "no end in sight" from fiction (as it was and continues to be about the composition and structure of fiction).



Well, your original inquiry was about the thread on pen names not No End In Sight so if your questions about the pseudonym thread are answered, by all means, let's move on to your next inquiry.

The first half dozen posts or more in the topic No End In Sight were discussing stories in the New Yorker magazine which led me to believe that this was a conversation better suited for the Literary Magazine forum. So I moved it. I usually leave the moved pointer up for a few days so that people can find the new location but for folks like you and LaLoren, who may not check back in for a while, it may not be there.

As with many conversations in the Speakeasy, things often drift and this conversation drifted a lot more toward the writing of fiction than the policies or preferences of The New Yorker, so it actually no longer belongs in Lit Mags. But when a conversation is that far along, I don't move it because that will almost certainly take the momentum away and it's a great conversation that I'd like to see it play out. If or when it does, I'll probably move it back to fiction.

Moderating discussions isn't an exact science and I make no claims to being right in every decision I make. It's a judgment call and I use my best judgment and hope that it works. With this particular software platform it's challenging to keep discussions in a place where others might conceivably look for them at a later date. It doesn't always work and it doesn't always work for everyone but I try. Such is being human.


In Reply To
It's not mandatory is it?


Why, Bill, I had no idea you had a sense of humor!


whimsy
Bill Lindsley

e-mail user

Apr 10, 2008, 4:47 PM

Post #12 of 17 (7786 views)
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Re: [motet] Moved Threads? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
. . . I had no idea you had a sense of humor!



Is that a joke?


Actually, since I have been told with some emphasis, more than a few times, I know that my "sense of humor" is not universal, at best, more often obscure, and at worst not at all humorous. Oh well. (My sense of humor is particularly out of sync in my present milieu, since Canadians, it seems, or at least the Canadians in regions north of Superior, tend to have a more direct, explicit style of humor, and are not accustomed to dead pan humor at all, despite their overuse of puns.)

My initial inquiry, however, was indeed in reference to the "no end in sight" thread (not explicitly referred to by name), as the first sentence in my initial post referred, "in particular," to "the recent threads moved to literary magazines . . . " Sometimes the plural form is not a typo, and when there is a reference to "for example" that implies one among others, not just the named example.

I realize that it is not just a matter of the software/interface that can be problematic in trying to sustain a sensible, accessible organization for often diverse, meandering discussions. Identifying apt categories is not a straightforward, simple task in the context of a discussion board like this (thus it is not uncommon to see some preface a post with something like "I am not sure this is the right/best place to post this," while more than occasionally some posts are blatantly misallocated).

I have sometimes tried to think of a more general category/topic that would help to locate subjects common to all the genres (speaking of poetry, fiction, and nonfiction as genres), such as subjects like pen names, or copyright, or free speech (which is of course broader than mere first amendment, censorship issues), among others. I have drawn a blank, so have made no suggestion, even though some of these subjects have ended up scattered in several different topics and threads. (Personally, if one is looking for the "one best place," to me it seems the "pen name" discussion seems to fall more under "sending work out" since the discussion is primarily focused, usually, on how to approach markets when using a pen name; but that also seems the one topic it is not brought up in.)


JoanneMerriam
Joanne Merriam


Apr 10, 2008, 5:10 PM

Post #13 of 17 (7783 views)
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Re: [whimsy] Moved Threads? [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill, the inability to understand deadpan humour is only one reason why the rest of Canada hates Upper Canadians (i.e. people from Ontario).


Editor: 7x20 * Upper Rubber Boot Books
Most recently: Apocalypse Now: Poems and Prose from the End of Days (Atwood, Bacigalupi, JCO, etc.)

Writer: joannemerriam.com * The Glaze from Breaking (poetry)


whimsy
Bill Lindsley

e-mail user

Apr 11, 2008, 9:36 PM

Post #14 of 17 (7693 views)
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Re: [JoanneMerriam] Canadian humour [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Bill, the inability to understand deadpan humour is only one reason why the rest of Canada hates Upper Canadians (i.e. people from Ontario).



Is that a joke?

Actually, I am not sure which way you are pointing this observation. Is it because "Upper Canadians" cannot understand deadpan humour that they are hated, or because other Canadians do not understand the deadpan humour of Upper Canadians? I have not met any Canadians, yet (and I have been coming to Canada for nearly forty years, a real lot in the last decade and a half, and for extended periods of time going on 7 years), who are into what I would call "deadpan" humour. Slapstick seems popular. Puns are rampant. Around Toronto and Hamilton/Cambridge/Guelph (another area where I have spent more than a bit of time) there is a lot of NYer style humour, you know the style, comes in biting, urbane flavors typical of North Am large urban areas. Anything approaching deadpan, however, seems to tip into farce. I suppose one might say the humour in "Corner Gas" (now cancelled) includes a form of deadpan, but too obvious, too direct, and thus more slapstick or farce, than what I think of as deadpan (which to me has a bearing of dead serious, unless one thinks about it, and then, uhh, duh, wry smile or a wince depending on how bad the humour really is).

My experience with humour in Nova Scotia, visiting with my wife's family in Shelburne (years ago, long before we married), was baffling. They were too funny -- I had cracked a rib the night before visiting, and while I had no idea how to label or categorize their humour, they were making me writhe in pain from uncontrollable laughing. Was not fair.

I am in Ontario, but Northwestern Ontario is a world apart from the GTA, and at least regionally different than the rest of "Southern Ontario" (Windsor to Niagara, and including the GTA) . . . this is isolated (even if I am in a town of a hundred thousand . . . there is no other city, of any size, however, for hundreds of miles in any direction . . . none this side of Moscow if one goes north from here), mills and wilderness on the "Shield" along the north shore of Lake Superior. I love the local culture. Our North of Superior Film Association is among the best for bringing in foreign and independent films (just had our annual fest end of March . . . I saw 11 of the 18 films in four days, out of a possible 13 screening times). I love being able to wear jeans to the best restaurants in town (that does not make them any less expensive than fine restaurants elsewhere . . . indeed, more expensive than the States by a substantial margin). But it is like being from Western or Central NY . . . whenever I went anywhere, people assumed I was from NY City (which I have not been to since 1983), and even now, when I present my NY drivers license, people jump to the conclusion I am either from NY City or have spent a lot of time there. Nope. I haven't, not since a few visits in the early 70s and one more in '83. And it is the same when one says they live in "Northwestern Ontario." All anyone hears is "Ontario" with visions of the CN Tower, Skydome, St. Catherines, Ottawa, and London. Different world.

For now, my wife stomps my foot if I slip and start uttering what I think is humour. She is right, of course. Almost no none gets it.


JoanneMerriam
Joanne Merriam


Apr 12, 2008, 12:24 PM

Post #15 of 17 (7632 views)
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Re: [whimsy] Canadian humour [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Bill, the inability to understand deadpan humour is only one reason why the rest of Canada hates Upper Canadians (i.e. people from Ontario).


Is that a joke?

Actually, I am not sure which way you are pointing this observation. Is it because "Upper Canadians" cannot understand deadpan humour that they are hated, or because other Canadians do not understand the deadpan humour of Upper Canadians?


It was a joke, but it's also true. People from Ontario typically don't "get" deadpan humour (or, frequently, ironic comments or even sarcasm). Maritimers use a lot of deadpan humour, although I am not sure if you'd consider it true deadpan since we tend to signal that we're joking by letting our eyes get very slightly wider and more innocent. Corner Gas is an example of the Prairies equivalent and is, I agree, less subtle, although I love the crap out of that show.

(It sounds like you don't know why I used the term Upper Canadians? It's what Maritimers call people from Ontario when we're being somewhat perjorative. Upper Canada was the name of the original colony which is now Ontario, and we *really* didn't like them back then, so the term has stuck. A Maritimer using it now is making a complicated and largely unconscious callback to the historical economic oppression of the Maritimes and contempt towards Maritimers by the people in power in Ottawa. Sort of like a Southerner using the term Yankee.)


Editor: 7x20 * Upper Rubber Boot Books
Most recently: Apocalypse Now: Poems and Prose from the End of Days (Atwood, Bacigalupi, JCO, etc.)

Writer: joannemerriam.com * The Glaze from Breaking (poetry)


whimsy
Bill Lindsley

e-mail user

Apr 12, 2008, 6:12 PM

Post #16 of 17 (7605 views)
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Re: [JoanneMerriam] Upper Canada [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually I have been familiar with the term "Upper Canada" and "Upper Canadians" for a long time, since perusing some early history and understanding that what (some, as history draws a blank among many) Americans know as the "French & Indian Wars," othewise known as the "Seven Years War," was of greater import to the north, culminating in Wolfe's victory (though he died in it) at the battle at the Plains of Abraham (Quebec City), even though the formal "Treaty of Paris" (the first formal designation of upper and lower Canada?) did not come about until a few years later
(while I was an undergrad I lived near "Montcalm Park" in Oswego, NY, which is just twenty miles or so from Trenton, Ontario, across the lake; the park was obviously named after the French general who lost at the battle on the Plains of Abraham -- BTW I was dismayed to see that a massive fire destroyed the Armory just a little bit ago, Old Quebec City has been one of my favorites, which I last visited in '06).

As such, I have understood it to refer to any part of Canada "upstream" of where the St. Lawrence River flows out of Lake Ontario, although some seem to be referring in particular to "Southern Ontario" (technically Thunder Bay is within the geographical region that was indeed part of the province of "Upper Canada" since it is on Lake Superior . . . while areas farther north, like Hearst and Cochrane, Ontario, were not, since they are in the Hudson Bay watershed, but culturally, as I said before, this part of Ontario is rather foreign to Southern Ontario). And all that was before the westward migrations in the latter half of the 19th Century.

But I also understood that as a maritimer you were probably using it in the sense you say. As I said, my wife's family roots are in Nova Scotia and go back there since her ancestors were relocated from the new United States following the war . . . some of her family were among the Loyalists while one branch goes back to the slaves who fought on the side of the British and after the war were emancipated and resettled in Birchtown, a little ways from Shelburne . . . and it was not until her mother and father's generation that members of the family started migrating to other parts of Canada (to find jobs, of course).


JoanneMerriam
Joanne Merriam


Apr 12, 2008, 8:49 PM

Post #17 of 17 (7594 views)
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Re: [whimsy] Upper Canada [In reply to] Can't Post

Relocated, that's awesome. I take it they were amongst the people whose houses were burned down, who fled town so they wouldn't get lynched? (I'm also descended from some UE Loyalists, although most of my ancestors came straight to Canada from Europe.)


Editor: 7x20 * Upper Rubber Boot Books
Most recently: Apocalypse Now: Poems and Prose from the End of Days (Atwood, Bacigalupi, JCO, etc.)

Writer: joannemerriam.com * The Glaze from Breaking (poetry)

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