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jwegman

Nov 27, 2005, 1:41 PM

Post #1 of 764 (16046 views)
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Current MFA Rankings	Can't Post

Does anyone know where to get current (at least 2003/4/5) rankings on MFA in Creative Writing programs? I have an MA from Iowa State University and want to apply (can't find a job since I graduated in May of '05) for an MFA but am depressed, scared, and don't know where I would even want to go or if I can get the application materials together in time for the deadlines.

Just wondering. Thanks.

thee swimmer

Nov 27, 2005, 4:39 PM

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Re: [jwegman] Current MFA Rankings [In reply to]	Can't Post

I don't think there are any up to date Creative Writing MFA rankings.

I found that by going back and reading all the posts over the last few years, I was able to cobble together a pretty comprehensive list (I chose 10 schools).

The folks who post on this board really seem to know their stuff, and it's encouraging to know that others are going through the same process.

Good luck with everything.

pongo
Real men bake bread.

Nov 27, 2005, 5:31 PM

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Re: [thee swimmer] Current MFA Rankings [In reply to]	Can't Post

There are a number of problems with any MFA program rankings, the most important being that no ranking is really meaningful for you unless you know all the factors that went into it, and at that point you might as well do the research yourself.

For example, some people might have ranked Iowa tops when I was applying, but I needed a low-res program. Some might have ranked Brown very highly, but it leans toward a kind of writing that I don't find congenial. Some programs focus more on criticism, some more on pure writing, some on getting published, and so on. You need to know what you want from your MFA and then you need to know which programs will give you that, and no ranking will tell you.

dmh

Poetry: It's not just for sissies any more.

Difficult Listening, Sundays from ten to noon (Central time), at http://www.radiofreenashville.org/.

http://home.comcast.net/~david.m.harris/site/

sibyline

Mar 23, 2006, 4:56 PM

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What are your rankings? [In reply to]	Can't Post

All this talk of rankings and how the USN&WR ones are so out of date makes me think that we who have done our research are more in the know and can come up with a better rankings list if we talk about it. So I wanna start the ball rolling by listing what I believe to be the top ten schools in fiction. My caveat is that I haven't done a lot of research on some schools, and I do show a private school bias. But you can definitely make suggestions as this list develops.

1. Iowa - on reputation alone, it's still self-selecting and attracts the most applicants and best students. Add the reputation of its professors (Marilynne Robinson and James Alan McPherson among them), and it's hard to question its place. However, it does have minuses, including the fact that it has a tiered funding system and is seen as conservative.

2. Johns Hopkins - fully funded for all students with Alice McDermott and Stephen Dixon on faculty, as well as a top-notch English PhD wing as complement, Hopkins is definitely an amazing program. The two-year format is pretty new though, so it may not be as well-tested as other programs. Also, the fact that Hopkins is primarily known as a science school may affect environment (read: stuffy).

3. Cornell - the best financial deal among the programs: a fully-funded two years for all students plus a guaranteed two-year lectureship after graduating. Extremely small with four students in each genre admitted each year. No outright stars among the faculty, but an amazing teacher-student ratio, especially with the recent addition of Ernesto Quinones and J. Robert Lennon to the faculty. Also the highest ranked English PhD program among schools that also have MFA Writing programs.

4. Michigan - Peter Ho Davies and Nick Delbanco lead a faculty with a great reputation and a fantastic recent publication record. As of this year, they're also funding all students equally. Even though the funding isn't as good as at other schools, they also have fellowships available upon graduation. Faculty-student ratio isn't great but students seem to be doing quite well regardless.

5. Brown - The place to go if you're feeling cutting-edge and experimental. Fully-funded though cost-of-living is high.

6. Michener Center, UT-Austin - Time, time, time is the key: three years of fully-funded study without teaching responsibilities. The problem is that there's no permanent faculty, so feedback may be inconsistent.

7. Boston University - With Jhumpa Lahiri, Ha Jin, and Peter Ho Davis emerging from BU to become luminaries, there's no doubt that it has emerged as a top program. Problem is that it's only one year and the funding situation isn't great.

8. Columbia - New York location draws excellent faculty but at what cost? Try being at least $30,000 in debt for each year you're in the program. But hey, the location and people to work with are hard to beat.

9. UVA - Ann Beattie and John Casey head a stellar faculty in a fully-funded program.

10. University of Houston - A significant amount of star power among the faculty with Antonya Nelson and Robert Boswell, but not all students are funded and incoming first-years have to teach as soon as they get there.

Other programs that could be on this list, but I don't know enough about them: UC Irvine, University of Montana, University of Massachusetts-Amherst, Wash U., Syracuse, NYU, Arizona

(This post was edited by sibyline on Mar 23, 2006, 4:57 PM)

bigcities

Mar 23, 2006, 5:15 PM

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Re: [sibyline] What are your rankings? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think Deborah Eisenberg's one of the major draws of UVA, myself. Given the faculty, full funding, teaching opportunities, and general "reputation," I'd probably put UVA in the top five. The idea of working with Eisenberg and Beattie at the same time makes my head want to explode - in a good way.

Syracuse has George Saunders and Mary Gaitskill on faculty, so they're moving up in the world. I have no idea what the funding's like there, though.

There are a number of programs I'd probably put above Brown (very niche) or Boston University, especially since it's a one year deal with little funding. U Mass-Amherst, for example, is a three year program that has tiered funding (much like Iowa) and plenty of opportunities for teaching (both at the college itself and neighboring universities), as well as poetry luminaries like James Tate, a famed summer writing workshop (Juniper), and an extremely well-respected literary magazine (Jubilat). Formerly run by MacArthur Genius Grant winner John Edgar Wideman, the program has also produced poets like Matthew Zapruder (editor for Verse/Wave press) and David Berman - two of poetry's few "stars." It's a damn good school. The University of Montana also tops BU, in my opinion: An Iowa surrogate (i.e. it's modeled on Iowa's program), it's got Kevin Canty and Karen Volkman, (once again) a great reputation, and a steady stream of quality visiting writers and lecturers. In fact, I was told by a reliable source (i.e. someone that got in) that Aimee Bender will be a visiting lecturer this coming fall.

So, yeah... There are plenty of excellent state schools out there that match (or trump) the private stuff.

(This post was edited by bigcities on Mar 23, 2006, 5:50 PM)

franz

Mar 23, 2006, 5:19 PM

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U.S. News and Worst Report [In reply to]	Can't Post

Joseph, I'll concede the point. I'm ready to move onto other topics.

Actually, I whipped myself up into a bit of a frenzy about the U.S. News and World Report rankings. I have a copy of the 1996 listing on my computer. It was helpful for my application process because it was basically the only information out there. However, it's still a load of crap. Thankfully, Tom Kealey's new book should shatter any illusions about this list. Everyone on the forum has been talking about how flawed the list is, but I haven't seen much mention of its actual flaws. Here are just a few.

Let's start with omissions:
Where's the University of Wisconsin? They have a great program. How about uber experimental CalArts? Where's Hunter? How about the New School? Where's Texas-San Marco? Where are the dozens of programs that have cropped up since 1996?

And how about the arbitariness of the rankings:
Here's the most egregious one, I think- Minnesota at 62? Well, now they got Charles Baxter. Syracuse has full funding, George Saunders and Marilynn Gaitskill and they're #20? I wouldn't have the nerve to put them that low. I also wouldn't have tied them with Sarah Lawrence, which has a great program but poor funding. Texas-Austin Michener Center is 30? They have an awesome program. Why is USC's super-small and selective program at 33? And tied with Oregon, which also has a great program? And why is Alabama's awesome 4 years of funding at 37? How about Florida State's great funding? (37) Notre Dame is up and coming and they're 83 here. Ditto the Art Institute of Chicago, tied for 83-- they've got an interesting experimental program. Meanwhile, Emerson is overrated at 20. They've been falling apart, don't have much funding, and their faculty retention is low.
And how did they give Indiana a 16 (when it could easily go higher) and Ohio State a 37 (when it is comparable in many ways to Indiana)? They're both great programs. And UC-Davis has been climbing up since these rankings, when it was #30. And Hopkins at #2-- don't get me wrong, it's awesome, but back then, they didn't even have an MFA. They had an MA and a one year program.
-How did low-residency programs Goddard (83), Warren Wilson (20), and Bennington (37) get lumped in with other programs? What was their basis for giving WW a higher ranking than the Michener Center? Well, yeah, I think I like apples better than oranges. And where are all the other low-res programs? Oh yeah, they didn't exist yet.
-Looking at the #10 ranking-- that must have been thorny-- how did they compare Boston's 1 year program to UMass and UWash's 3 year program to Cornell's 2 year program? And the fact that Boston has poor funding and Cornell gives full funding with a 2 year teaching option after you finish?
-What was the basis for the ranking of Columbia at 4, ahead of UC-Irvine, Michigan, Cornell and Brown, all of which have full funding, supportive faculty and name recognition, while Columbia has only the last of the three? Get outta here.
So, to agree with bigcities and just about everybody, take the list with a lot of salt.

Franz Knupfer, author of short stories and novels

JosephC

Mar 23, 2006, 5:20 PM

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Re: [bigcities] What are your rankings? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Syracuse has excellent funding. I would definitely include their program.

1. Iowa
2. Johns Hopkins
3. UC Irvine
4. Houston
5. UVA
6. Arizona
7. U-Washington-Seattle
8. U-Mass-Amherst
9. U-Montana
10. Brown

I chose this listing based on the quality of faculty, location, and funding. Also included would be Brown, Syracuse, Cornell, and BU.

rapunzel1983
Marisa Lee

Mar 23, 2006, 5:40 PM

Post #8 of 764 (15731 views)
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Re: [franz] U.S. News and Worst Report [In reply to]	Can't Post

Wow, that beautifully said it all!!! Thanks, Franz.

franz

Mar 23, 2006, 5:40 PM

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Re: [JosephC] What are your rankings? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I don't know if I could do it 1,2,3, but I'd give it different tiers

Iowa-in a class by itself simply because it was ground-breaking and has the amazing history. However, with so many other good programs, I don't know if I would necessarily say it's the 'best' anymore. And the funding isn't perfect.

Highest tier
(Funding for ALL students, small enough program to get attention from faculty, great faculty, reputation and history)
Stegner, Cornell, Michigan, Brown, Michener, Hopkins, Syracuse, UC-Irvine

High tier
(Good funding, faculty, and reputation)
UMass, UWash, Arizona, Montana, Indiana

Pretty high tier
(Good funding still but maybe don't know as much about the faculty and reputation)
Ohio State, Minnesota, Oregon, Arkansas, Alabama, Arizona State, UC-Davis, USC, Florida

Programs that I think are overrated and wouldn't give a high tier (mainly because of funding but also lack of attention)
Columbia, NYU, Hunter (Don't get me wrong, I love NYC, but what do these schools expect considering NYC's insane cost of living) Emerson (Boston U, however, I think is pretty awesome anyway)

Programs I don't know anything about but I'm sure are really good:
Houston, Virginia, Washington U

Franz Knupfer, author of short stories and novels

lavashlavash

Mar 23, 2006, 6:11 PM

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Re: [JosephC] What are your rankings? [In reply to]	Can't Post

This is a fun thread idea. Everything is subjective, but...

1. UC Irvine
2. Iowa
3. Johns Hopkins
4. Michigan
5. Brown
6. Cornell

...

Gets a little murky after that...

JosephC

Mar 23, 2006, 6:35 PM

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Re: [bigcities] What are your rankings? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Definitely, bigcities. I couldn't have said it better myself.

In Reply To

bighark

Mar 23, 2006, 6:40 PM

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Re: [lavashlavash] What are your rankings? [In reply to]	Can't Post

My top ten list is for fiction. It's presented in alphabetical order.

Brown: Brown has plenty of funding and an all-star faculty. As a matter of fact, I'll go so far as to say that Brown has the most exciting faculty of any program I've looked at. Coover, Maso, Vogel, and Wright are among the accomplished writers in American letters, bar none.
Cornell: It's small, selective, secluded, and rich.
Florida State University: FSU's director has big plans for this program, and he has the money and the university's will to make it happen.
Iowa: The funding is not ideal, but I think there's something to be said for the bigness of the program. Having 25 other writers in your cohort is definitely going to contribute to your development. Well, that and the fact that Ethan Canin is the shit.
Indiana: This fully funded program is especially good for folks who want formal and directed pedagocical training.
Minnesota: The program offers three full years of fundins and has Charles "Burning Down the House" Baxter.
Notre Dame: Steve Tomasula has some of the most exciting experimental writing this side of Brown. Valerie Sayers is just elegant, and Frances Shorewood is great. ND has an influx of cash thanks to Nicholas Sparks and a good relationship with an English department that includes none other than Margaret Doody.
Syracuse: Three years of funding and George Saunders. Game. Set. Match.
UC Irvine: I don't know much about this place apart from its reputation. It's got one hell of a reputation, though. Damn.
Wisconsin:Wisconsin's money isn't the greatest, but it does fully fund its students. Plus, there's that nifty every other year thing they've got going on in terms of fiction and poetry cohorts. And hey--Lorrie Moore anyone?

rapunzel1983
Marisa Lee

Mar 23, 2006, 6:41 PM

Post #13 of 764 (15711 views)
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Re: [lavashlavash] What are your rankings? [In reply to]	Can't Post

This is how I think of it personally:

1. Iowa, Johns Hopkins, Irvine
2. Michigan, Cornell
3. UVA, Montana, Arizona, UMass, Washington
4. Brown, Indiana, Syracuse
5. Columbia, NYU, BU (all great but sucky funding)

dunno enough about Houston

I don't think there should be rankings. I think each program should receive scores based A) faculty rep B) alumni publication record C) funding D) quality of lit mag published+reading series+other miscellaneous.

Clench Million
Charles

Mar 23, 2006, 6:44 PM

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Re: [franz] U.S. News and Worst Report [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

Let's start with omissions:
Where's the University of Wisconsin? They have a great program. How about uber experimental CalArts? Where's Hunter? How about the New School? Where's Texas-San Marco? Where are the dozens of programs that have cropped up since 1996?

Well it really isn't a critique of a list from 1996 to say they ommited stuff from after 96. But I've seen several people talk about mid-90s rankings. For those who haven't seen it, here is the 2002 rankings: http://www.english.ucsb.edu/...d/aftermajor/mfa.asp

I think funding is certainly a big issue, but personally I think you are overstating it. It isn't the only factor in a programs worth and I don't think some program like alabama's or Florida State's should jump up on the list on funding alone...

Quote

What was their basis for giving WW a higher ranking than the Michener Center?

You've said a couple comments like this. I think you are confused with the process. "They" didn't decide anything. "They" didn't have a reason to rank one above the other. They asked the faculty at MFA programs to rank the OTHER programs on various things. This is peer reviewed. Why did the faculty rank Columbia above FLorida state? I dunno, you'd have to ask every MFA faculty member to find out.

This is like of like Rotten Tomatoes or something. Sometimes when talking about sites like that or Metacritic people will say "what reason do they have for ranking Spiderman 2 over spiderman 1?!" or whatever, but the answer is that is what the critics ranked, RT and Metacritic are just compiling their votes.

Same thing here.

Clench Million
Charles

Mar 23, 2006, 6:50 PM

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Re: [franz] What are your rankings? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm not going to pertend to have researched every program or know that much about all of them, but here is what immediately comes to mind for me:

Top Tier: Iowa, JHU, Columbia, NYU, UCI, Umass Amherest, Michigan, Houston, UVA and Cornell

Second Tier: Brown, Syracuse, Indiana, Arizona, Indiana and Washington. Maybe Montana, George Mason and SLC too.

franz: You seem to be quite into small classes. Why do you think those are so superior?
I haven't been able to decide what I"d prefer. On one hand, you probably get closer to your teachers and that is a good thing. OTOH, being with the same 4 other students could be negative in a couple ways. You'd have a better chance of finding likeminded students and finding writer friends you like more at a big program.

Obvious you get to choose your priorities, I'm not disagreeing with your list, just wondering why you are so into small programs?

(This post was edited by Clench Million on Mar 23, 2006, 7:07 PM)

rapunzel1983
Marisa Lee

Mar 23, 2006, 6:56 PM

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Re: [bighark] What are your rankings? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yes, Valerie Sayers and Frances Sherwood are great. And Cornelius Eady. Sherwood seems extremely accomplished.

Hahhaa, just because nobody has said this yet, and because it's been itching at me for several weeks--I don't think Samantha Chang is that great of a writer. Maybe because I'm Chinese, and I've read too many Gish Jen, Maxine Hong Kingston, and Amy Tan books.... but Chang doesn't compare to them in my mind. I read her book, and it just felt like imitation Amy Tan. And my dad read her book, too. He couldn't remember what happened after finishing it. He said it felt like a soap opera. And signing 743 rejection letters? Hmmm.... I don't think it's that hard to sign your name 743 times.

But somebody's going to come and knock me down right after I post this, so I'll keep quiet. The Chang worship strikes me as odd, that's all.

clarabow

Mar 23, 2006, 7:07 PM

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Re: [rapunzel1983] What are your rankings? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Someone forgot to mention that Indiana funds all its students and the publishing record there is very substantial lately.

If you're looking for the person who has probably done the most research on this topic, Tom Kealey considers Irvine the best, and puts Indiana, Irvine, Austin, Michigan and ? (couldn't find it) in the top 5, and Cornell, Syrcause, Houston, Virginia and ?? in the top 10.

That said, you're pretty much have to be crazy to make your decisions based on schools, and I kind of think rankings are b.s. Once you get above a certain level, there really is no clear distinction. It's like saying that Yale is a better school than Johns Hopkins because Yale is in the Ivy League. Uh, well, Johns Hopkins is just as good, or Boston University is as good as Brown, or whatever.

Look at these programs' English Departments, as well. Iowa's English department isn't nearly as well-considered as Indiana or Virginia; I know that the WW is sep. from the English department, but it speaks to the caliber of the literary community. Or does it? I don't think it does. This is all so freaking arbitrary and the more I write, the more I realize how foolish it is for me to spend my time on this, so I'll stop now.

Clench Million
Charles

Mar 23, 2006, 7:09 PM

Post #18 of 764 (15676 views)
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Re: [Clench Million] What are your rankings? [In reply to]	Can't Post

My list there is just based on my idea of the program in general though.
If I made the list more personal, I'd reject a lot of those schools. It doesn't matter how great the progam at Montana, Ann Arbor or Syracuse are... I have no interest in living in those places for a couple years of my life.

(This post was edited by Clench Million on Mar 23, 2006, 7:38 PM)

sanssoleil
Chris

Mar 23, 2006, 7:10 PM

Post #19 of 764 (15673 views)
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Re: [franz] What are your rankings? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I used an admittedly stupid criterion when I selected the schools I applied to. I considered funding and geographical location, but I usually looked at faculty first. I know why I shouldn't have done this, so you don't have to tell me why this is a stupid strategy. So, with that criterion in mind:

Brown, for Brian Evenson.
Syracuse, for George Saunders.
Cal Arts, for Steve Erickson.
Columbia, for Ben Marcus.

Obviously these programs dangle these names to attract people like me, but these writers must play a part in shaping the rhythm and vibe of a program. I don't know. Iowa, University of Washington, NYU, Irvine--I applied to those programs, but their respective faculties are responsible for almost zero interesting literature, in my (retarded, yeah) opinion.

rapunzel1983
Marisa Lee

Mar 23, 2006, 7:11 PM

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Re: [Clench Million] What are your rankings? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Um, I lived in Syracuse for awhile. It's perfectly fine. Ann Arbor's nice, too. and Montana's gorgeous.

Clench Million
Charles

Mar 23, 2006, 7:16 PM

Post #21 of 764 (15664 views)
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Re: [rapunzel1983] What are your rankings? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Its all preference. I have no interesting being trapped in the frigid north or anywhere in a land-locked state. Just me.

fishy

Mar 23, 2006, 7:23 PM

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Re: [Clench Million] U.S. News and Worst Report [In reply to]	Can't Post

1) The 2002 US News rankings are exactly the same as the 1997 rankings. Check here: http://www.notwriting.com/best_creative_grad.pdf. Look at the header--you'll note the header says "2002," but the rankings say "1997."

2) It's ridiculous to rank creative writing programs anyway. By what criteria could you possibly compare creative writing programs? US News no longer ranks them, you know. This fact, I think, should not be overlooked.

augustmaria

Mar 23, 2006, 7:31 PM

Post #23 of 764 (15643 views)
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Re: [Clench Million] What are your rankings? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Well, we don't want you, either.

Clench Million
Charles

Mar 23, 2006, 7:37 PM

Post #24 of 764 (15633 views)
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Re: [fishy] U.S. News and Worst Report [In reply to]	Can't Post

1) Point taken there. I was told they were different, but I guess they just reprinted them in 2002?

2) By what criteria can you compare any kind of graduate program? I don't see why it is so much more impossible to rank creative writing MFAs than Comparative Litertaure PhDs or anything else. Most of the same problems crop up...

Clench Million
Charles

Mar 23, 2006, 7:44 PM

Post #25 of 764 (15622 views)
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Re: [clarabow] What are your rankings? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

If you're looking for the person who has probably done the most research on this topic, Tom Kealey considers Irvine the best, and puts Indiana, Irvine, Austin, Michigan and ? (couldn't find it) in the top 5, and Cornell, Syrcause, Houston, Virginia and ?? in the top 10.

TK puts U of Texas in the top five.

JHU and Iowa round out his top 10

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