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Palix


Aug 24, 2008, 2:23 PM

Post #676 of 764 (17709 views)
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Re: [umass76] [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Hello Seth-

Muchas gracias! In light of your new Blogger rankings, I have adjusted my list slightly. These will be the programs I will be applying to this fall in the fiction genre.

Iowa
Minnesota
Montana
Purdue
Vanderbilt
Arizona State
Florida
American
University of British Columbia
UCSD


keebob


Aug 28, 2008, 4:38 PM

Post #677 of 764 (17573 views)
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Re: [Palix] [In reply to] Can't Post

 
hey guys-

forgive me if this thing isn't going on anymore, but i'm coming to this thread late in the game, so to speak. didn't really have much of a clue what i was doing at first, but with the help of the mfa blog and some other sites, and with the advice of my fiction writing professor from undergrad, i'm starting to have a better sense of where i'd like to apply. i have 8 "for sure" schools and 2 maybes. these are the "for sure" fiction programs i'll be applying to:

indiana
illinois
iowa
notre dame
montana
university of massachusetts, amherst
ohio state
minnesota

maybes include oregon and tx state

take care and good luck to all!


seemingmeaning

e-mail user

Aug 28, 2008, 5:00 PM

Post #678 of 764 (17565 views)
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Re: [keebob] [In reply to] Can't Post

Alrighty,

After spending three years in the publishing industry, I decided that it's time to throw my hat in and get my MFA. And, after two years of perusing the speakeasy site and gathering research and such--thanks to Seth--herein is my top list for the MFA in fiction for 2009/2010.

1. University of North Carolina @ Wilmington
2. University of Florida
3. University of North Carolina @ Greensboro
4. University of Miami
5. Vanderbilt University
6. University of Wisconsin @ Madison
7. Cornell University

And, for my 8th pick, I am debating whether Iowa or University of Texas@ Austin should be included. Hmmmmm.


Palix


Aug 28, 2008, 5:22 PM

Post #679 of 764 (17555 views)
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Re: [seemingmeaning] [In reply to] Can't Post

seemingmeaning,

If you had to pick just one, I'd pick Iowa hands down. Much, much better program, in my opinion, and you should know what that name can do having worked in the publishing industry. Also, you technically have better odds of getting in since there are more spots. Still a major longshot, of course, and Texas gives you a bit more money, but Iowa's funding is pretty outstanding too. But here's my question: Why not apply to both? You only have 8 schools on your list as it is. Why not make it ten?


baffled


Aug 28, 2008, 5:41 PM

Post #680 of 764 (17551 views)
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Re: [Palix] [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I would have to agree with Palix. If you have to choose 1, go with Iowa; but apply to both if you can afford it. On a side note, bear in mind that both schools fall into the "low odds" category.


symmetrical


Aug 28, 2008, 6:06 PM

Post #681 of 764 (17537 views)
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Re: [baffled] [In reply to] Can't Post

Also, Wisconsin-Madison is in a poetry year, so you can take it off, thereby making room for both.


Raysen


Aug 28, 2008, 10:07 PM

Post #682 of 764 (17511 views)
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Rankings [In reply to] Can't Post

Honestly, I don't know why people get their panties in a bunch over rankings. I use rankings as a starting point to compile my list of schools to apply to, nothing more. In the end, it won't matter that Columbia, for example, is #43 while Hollins is #14. For someone like me with my priorities and personal needs and whatnot, I may just elect to attend Columbia over Hollins even if I had to shell out $50K each year. However, I do use the list, as I said, to unearth "hidden" or under-the-radar schools like Minnesota.

Just to use a better example, if I got into #3 Minnesota and #10 Virginia, I won't hesitate to pick the lower ranked Virginia.

I guess the only ones who should really really care about this list are the schools themselves. They can dismiss it and find themselves ranked low, or play the game and do the things necessary to push their school's rankings up. For example, it helped that Helen Zell's people set up her extremely generous foundation at Michigan with the sole goal of pushing Michigan to the top spot among MFA writing programs. Such a foundation (which benefits MFA students, as well as the school itself) wouldn't have been set up if people like the ones who run the Helen Zell foundation didn't care about rankings.

We need more and more schools and people to care about the rankings so that the quality of the programs goes up and everyone benefits.


(This post was edited by Raysen on Aug 28, 2008, 10:08 PM)


seemingmeaning

e-mail user

Aug 29, 2008, 12:23 AM

Post #683 of 764 (17480 views)
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Re: [baffled] [In reply to] Can't Post

And, yep, your comment on both Iowa and Texas situated in the 'low-ball' category is a reason why I shied away from adding onto my list. Then again, I am sure it's ironic that I chose Cornell--a school certainly with a rather low acceptance rate. Overall, I like both schools but realistically I am not sure if my portfolio is strong enough to get in to Iowa's program. Somehow, though, something tells me that Iowa--obviously because of its stellar reputation--seems to have a strong output of short story writers (i.e. Boyle, O'Connor, etc)--a genre I want to ONLY write. Any more thoughts/suggestions?


Clench Million
Charles

Aug 29, 2008, 2:33 PM

Post #684 of 764 (17428 views)
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Re: [Raysen] Rankings [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Honestly, I don't know why people get their panties in a bunch over rankings. I use rankings as a starting point to compile my list of schools to apply to, nothing more. In the end, it won't matter that Columbia, for example, is #43 while Hollins is #14. For someone like me with my priorities and personal needs and whatnot, I may just elect to attend Columbia over Hollins even if I had to shell out $50K each year. However, I do use the list, as I said, to unearth "hidden" or under-the-radar schools like Minnesota.



Keep in mind that said "rankings" are not really rankings but a poll of one small group of internet users. It doesn't really reflect the quality of a program, the success of the alumni or the prestige of a program in the greater literary world.


Raysen


Aug 29, 2008, 3:34 PM

Post #685 of 764 (17418 views)
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Re: [Clench Million] Rankings [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Honestly, I don't know why people get their panties in a bunch over rankings. I use rankings as a starting point to compile my list of schools to apply to, nothing more. In the end, it won't matter that Columbia, for example, is #43 while Hollins is #14. For someone like me with my priorities and personal needs and whatnot, I may just elect to attend Columbia over Hollins even if I had to shell out $50K each year. However, I do use the list, as I said, to unearth "hidden" or under-the-radar schools like Minnesota.



Keep in mind that said "rankings" are not really rankings but a poll of one small group of internet users. It doesn't really reflect the quality of a program, the success of the alumni or the prestige of a program in the greater literary world.


Yup. I know what these rankings ARE and ARE NOT. Also, I use the term "rankings" loosely because, as you and others realize, these are not rankings but opinions of bloggers. I could open up a blog myself and contribute (if asked) and I would've done my darndest to push Columbia up higher even though I've never visited the campus or have any insight into the school other than the fact that I sometimes think to myself, "Gee, I'd like to go to Columbia some day, live in New York, the Big Apple, and immerse myself in the culture of writers and publishers. Oh boy."

When I say this, I don't mean to disparage Seth's list. Hardly. I personally love lists because, as I said, I need a starting point from which to branch out. So, in that respect, opinions of others do matter to me...to a point.


(This post was edited by Raysen on Aug 29, 2008, 3:34 PM)


umass76


Aug 29, 2008, 6:26 PM

Post #686 of 764 (17387 views)
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Re: Rankings [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

If you took a poll of Americans' favorite soda brands, would the resultant data-set be a ranking of the most popular brands? I'm afraid the dictionary answers "yes" to that. So, just to be clear, what's on TSE is not a "list" in any sense, as that's not what that word means in English. It's a poll and a ranking, and that's how I've presented it.

Each year around 4,000 people apply to MFA programs; since January 1, 2007 (a period of about 18 months) nearly 500 MFA applicants, the best-informed demographic in the field of MFA programs, have participated in TSE polls. In other words, 1/8th of the entire applicant pool (by way of comparison, in politics a state with 25 million residents requires only a poll of 1/5th of 1/10th of 1/10th of 1 percent of the population to be considered accurate and significant). And over that time, the rankings have been shockingly consistent in terms of the top 40 programs in America. Only unfunded programs like SFSU, USF, Columbia, The New School, and others have seen significant fluctuations in their rank (generally downward). The other nearly 200 MFA programs in America seem to have found quite specific places in the ranking and stayed in one general area there, suggesting a high confidence rate for the poll.

Reaction to the poll from those who are not students at the unfunded programs is now running 99:1 positive. Literally. The complaints are coming from those who attend schools not doing well in the rankings, and let me say now that I can understand that. It's a legitimate personal reaction to something like this to try to denigrate it because certain programs are slowly losing their luster. And it's tempting, too, to implicitly laud the methodology of the USNWR96 rankings instead--despite the fact that no one knows less about whether recent college-grad MFA applicants will enjoy a program than MFA faculties twice their age asked to comment (by and large) on programs they're not familiar with (and 12 years ago, at that). It's MFA applicants who do the leg-work to speak to current students and faculty about individual programs, who research funding packages, locations, cost of living, and so on. If you've ever met a faculty member at an MFA, you understand that shoving a voluntary questionnaire in their hand and asking them to comment on every MFA program in America is a shockingly unsound and unreliable methodology. Apparently USNWR agrees, and that's why they discontinued their rankings.

It's funny, actually, that those most opposed to these rankings are also opposed to ever measuring programs on objective data, like funding packages, even though this is what has made the USNWR rankings in other fields credible and sustainable for decades. I'm put in mind of what, in the field of education, Jonathan Kozol has said about conservative activists who believe only better parenting helps failing public schools: it's very, very convenient that such activists, who fundamentally don't want anything to change in the public school system (particularly not in the way of increased funding for it), have selected an unmeasurable data-point as the hinge for any government funding of education. After all, if you can't measure it, then you can't do anything, right? It's the same for those who would rank programs only on bases which don't lend themselves to any sort of statistical analysis. The TSE polls are great because they mix objective and subjective considerations, as evidenced by the fact that some fully-funded programs are more popular than others due to their location (a subjective factor), while fully-funded programs generally are more popular than unfunded ones (based on objective analyses of funding packages).

I'm totally cool with people saying that a ranking is only so useful to a prospective applicant (I agree), or that some programs because of bad word-of-mouth will get a raw deal (I agree), or that no ranking system can ever be wholly reliable (I agree). But I'm not really cool with folks misrepresenting a poll and a ranking as a "list," and saying that 500 people is a small sample size in an overall data-pool of only a few thousand. Nor do I like the romanticizing of the discredited USNWR methodology, especially as the magazine itself has disowned it and, even at its best, it held no promise of being even as accurate as the TSE rankings. Of course, if we do want to single out selectivity as a factor, we can do so via the acceptance rate data, which shows that unfunded programs are scandalously easy to get into compared to their better-funded peers (e.g., unfunded, NY-based Ivy League program Columbia has an acceptance rate seven times higher than fully-funded, NY-based Ivy League program Cornell). Folks might look at this selectivity issue as a sort of "key" as to why some programs are plummeting in the rankings.

Best,
Seth


(This post was edited by umass76 on Aug 29, 2008, 6:30 PM)


pensive
Adam
e-mail user

Aug 29, 2008, 9:55 PM

Post #687 of 764 (17352 views)
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Re: [umass76] Rankings [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with Seth for the most part...but that's a poor analogy. If you're polling people to decide which is better: Coke or Pepsi? We've all tried Coke and Pepsi... we have a frame of reference. We haven't sat in on classes at all of these institutions. We don't really know which is better... And in thinking about it...current MFA applicants will tweak their school choices based on whatever data, or list, you present to them. So...if you love Minnesota's funding and put it at the top... more people will take your advice and apply to it... and thus it will be higher on a blogger list. Just a thought.


umass76


Aug 29, 2008, 10:36 PM

Post #688 of 764 (17339 views)
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Re: [pensive] Rankings [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Pensive,

I've given that last point some thought, and honestly I don't think it's an issue. I give applicants enough credit to believe they're not just applying to places based on rankings or what I say. I've given out a lot of advice, sure, but the effect on the applicant pool is, I'm certain, no more--at the absolute, almost unthinkable most--as the effect the USNWR rankings have had on undergraduate admissions. I think that's just a necessary evil of rankings, that they'll end up as self-fulfilling prophecies to an extent. That said, if more people apply to a school, it generally means the ultimately-selected cohort really will be better--i.e., the selectivity higher--so sometimes even "created" truth is still, in the end, truth.

Good point about the analogy. I was really only using it to distinguish a poll/ranking from a "list," though. I realize MFA applicants aren't as intimately familiar with MFAs as we all are with Coke and Pepsi; they're just a lot more informed than MFA professors are on this particular issue.

Be well,
Seth


(This post was edited by umass76 on Aug 29, 2008, 10:38 PM)


umass76


Aug 29, 2008, 10:38 PM

Post #689 of 764 (17332 views)
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Re: [umass76] Rankings [In reply to] Can't Post

P.S. The preliminary poetry-genre rankings are up. Fiction is coming soon.


bighark


Aug 30, 2008, 12:43 AM

Post #690 of 764 (17308 views)
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Re: [umass76] Rankings [In reply to] Can't Post

Food for thought:

There are fourteen stories in the 2009 Best New American Voices. Nine of these stories--that's sixty-four percent of the collection--are by writers whose nominating institutions are not even included in the 2008 P&W Reader Poll of Top 40 Fiction Programs.


pensive
Adam
e-mail user

Aug 30, 2008, 12:51 AM

Post #691 of 764 (17304 views)
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Re: [umass76] Rankings [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm also to some extent playing devil's advocate; I don't know what I would have done without your blog when I was applying. I can't thank you enough for the work you do


(This post was edited by pensive on Aug 30, 2008, 12:52 AM)


ejdifili
Emily

Aug 31, 2008, 12:07 PM

Post #692 of 764 (17226 views)
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Re: [umass76] Rankings [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
P.S. The preliminary poetry-genre rankings are up. Fiction is coming soon.


Sweet!!!!!!!!!


pogotrope


Aug 31, 2008, 5:17 PM

Post #693 of 764 (17184 views)
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Re: [ejdifili] Rankings [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Hi--

First time poster, long-time lurker. I am also a second-time applicant. I applied to poetry programs four years ago, but that was back when I believed I could actually write poetry! Now I know (or hope) I'm a fiction writer and will give it another go (with some trepidation) in the fiction realm.

My short list, not in any type of order

University of California, Irvine
University of Washington
University of Iowa
University of Mississippi
Virginia Commonwealth University
University of Minnesota
McNeese State University
University of Florida

3 Schools that might make my long list

NYU
University of Oregon
Florida State


l. cohen


Sep 3, 2008, 2:58 AM

Post #694 of 764 (17070 views)
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Re: [pogotrope] Rankings [In reply to] Can't Post

I have seven schools on my list so far, hoping to get it up to twelve....Only applying in fiction. The schools I am certain about are listed below.


1. Cornell
2. Iowa (Writers' Workshop)
3. NYU
5. Vanderbilt
6. Indiana
7. Memphis


I need five more schools and am open to all suggestions, particular under-the-radar schools. I have no geographical restrictions, but I would prefer schools in big cities or university towns. Funding should at least be decent, but doesn't have to be fully funded.

Thank you,
Lynn


pensive
Adam
e-mail user

Sep 4, 2008, 2:17 AM

Post #695 of 764 (16991 views)
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Re: [l. cohen] Rankings [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm a beginning student in the Sarah Lawrence College Fiction MFA, and I can't speak highly enough about the way I've been treated thus far. Our orientation was a week long and jam packed with info on programs and services they offer for writing students.

They REALLY care.

I merely mentioned that I might want to take a playwriting class for my elective and they tracked down the dept. chair and playwright in residence and set up a meeting with them the next day! They're funding isn't the best, but I received 7 grand in gift aid for the first year... which I believe they offer to anyone who has decent need. Bi-weekly conferences with professors about your writing... thirty minute train ride to New York City... I'm living 5 mins from campus and because it's a suburb my split of the rent is only 650! The campus is only 1000 undergrads and 300 grad students. That means MUCH more attention paid to you.

I haven't even started classes yet, but I can see that they PUT TEACHING FIRST.

You should definitely consider the school.


(This post was edited by pensive on Sep 4, 2008, 2:20 AM)


RaoulDuke
Cobra Cobachi

Sep 4, 2008, 1:59 PM

Post #696 of 764 (16945 views)
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Re: [pensive] Rankings [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Pensive,

Glad to hear things are going so swimmingly out there at Sarah Lawrence, congrats.

I'll take the time now, then, to plug the program I just recently began: Southern Illinois University, Carbondale.

We got here two weeks before classes started on the 18th of August to take part in a PSW (Pre-Session Workshop) in which we were given a crash course in the teaching of English comp. Just about every admitted graduate student in English receives an assistantship to teach, and while the seminars themselves were sometimes boring, the people here are phenomenal.

The MFA program is up and coming, and the director Allison Joseph is really working hard to make it the best it can possibly be. At every turn I am looking around and wondering how it is that I came to be surrounded by such brilliance. All of us new Fiction writers (and Poets) have been put into offices with one another, which is great for building social relationships. Pinckney Benedict teaches the Graduate Seminar in Fiction this semester and he's crazy brilliant. He's pushing us to feel like fools, to freak each other out. "If you don't push that send button and immediately feel like a complete idiot, you shouldn't be here." My first of four stories is due next Friday and I'm real excited.

There is so much more to say, but I will leave the details for PM's for anyone who has any questions about the program itself, the professors, the students, the funding, etc.

Just know that the program is growing in prestige, the funding is ridiculously awesome, and you get to teach a wide array of classes based on your interest in the subjects being offered. (We're all guaranteed to teach at least one writing workshop).

Good luck with your applications,

Rick

P.S
Carbondale is pretty sweet, too.


umass76


Sep 4, 2008, 8:49 PM

Post #697 of 764 (16894 views)
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Re: [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi all,

I think it's great that so many are having good experiences in their programs, and am happy to think folks want to share that good news with others. That said--before we have 100 posts about 100 different programs--I'd note that I think, for nearly any program, you could find differing opinions. And since no one ever bad-mouths their current program in a space this public and widely read, we can be fairly certain that it's not a question of whether one school referenced here is actually better than another, but rather whether or not a particular program happens to have a student who frequents this board and is willing to speak up--and if they do and s/he is, we're bound to hear positive things about that program.

And that's a function of luck, chance, and individual students' personalities, not the quality of their respective programs.

I've no doubt other students at Sarah Lawrence and SIU might have different things to say than the students here--not because those programs aren't excellent, but because the MFA experience is such a unique one for each individual artist that I'm not sure how probative it is that one person recommends a program. I'd venture a guess that it's not even probative if five students speak well of it. Ten? Yes, perhaps then. The point is, I look around my own program and see dozens (literally) of students who'd sing its praises, and I'm sure many who would have detrimental things to say. And neither would be wholly true, as each would be such a personalized perspective as to be both true and irrelevant (to any one reader's own application decisions) at the same time.

I don't really know what I'm saying here, except that it doesn't seem a very productive road for us all to go down, or a good use of this thread, for posters here to [perhaps not thinking of it this way] compete with one another to sing the praises of their respective programs louder and longer than others--even if (as everyone here does) we all do mean well. I think if folks want to privately message one another with specific questions, all right...but isn't there a risk that, barring that, this thread merely turns into a series of advertisements from those (and there are many at every program) who would and do speak well of their MFA experience?

Given that there's zero chance anyone will speak ill of their college/university in this space, what really are we learning here? This thread is for discussion of rankings; I think if folks want to start a separate thread entitled "Why I Recommend My Alma Mater," that's a different conversation entirely.

Best,
S.


(This post was edited by umass76 on Sep 4, 2008, 8:54 PM)


bighark


Sep 5, 2008, 10:38 AM

Post #698 of 764 (16823 views)
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Re: [umass76] Re: [In reply to] Can't Post

Are alma mater posts off-topic to the MFA Rankings thread, or do they provide a valued counterpoint?

Is there no value in reading a post that says, "My school doesn't fall within the top 10 or 25 or 50 of this unofficial ad hoc list, but I think it's great because I get money and I like my teachers and my classmates are publishing all over the place"?

What about people who think the rankings are a bunch of hooey? If they post their point of view respectfully, are they contributing to the discussion, or do they also need to be sent off to the "Why I Recommend My Alma Mater" official protest zone?


(This post was edited by bighark on Sep 5, 2008, 10:40 AM)


RaoulDuke
Cobra Cobachi

Sep 5, 2008, 11:24 AM

Post #699 of 764 (16810 views)
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Re: [l. cohen] Rankings [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To



I need five more schools and am open to all suggestions, particular under-the-radar schools. I have no geographical restrictions, but I would prefer schools in big cities or university towns. Funding should at least be decent, but doesn't have to be fully funded.

Thank you,
Lynn



(This post was edited by richardkae on Sep 5, 2008, 11:25 AM)


umass76


Sep 5, 2008, 12:30 PM

Post #700 of 764 (16781 views)
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Re: [bighark] Re: [In reply to] Can't Post

BH,

Um... what? I don't get this. How does one present a "counterpoint" to a poll? If today's MSNBC/WSJ poll has, say, Obama up by 5 points, should we starting posting testimonials from McCain voters? The two are really separate issues, particularly as the poll in no way declares "don't attend this program" or "this program's no good." To be clear (and I thought I was before, but apparently...) I never said "there is no value" in a post which talks about the specific features of a program; what I said was, given that such posts could easily overwhelm a single thread, they made most sense as responses to specific queries (as through PM) or as part of a dedicated thread in which what they were providing had specifically been asked for: pitches from program reps in the form of students. I also made another observation which had nothing to do with any poll or ranking: that the probative value of any one testimonial is limited. That's the majority view in academic admissions, not some sort of ranking-partisan hackery. Look, like the rankings or not, I don't care, but to say posts about (to use a hypothetical) "Why I like Wichita State in Spring" fall under the heading of "Current MFA Rankings" is a different matter...

In any case, it's clear you're a rankings-hater, and that's totally fine--though for future reference, I'll tell you that you telegraph/give it away a little heavy-handedly by calling it a "list" when you know isn't, talking about "official" rankings (What would that mean? The self-described "list" that appared in the Atlantic?), and somehow suggesting that taking a poll of MFA applicants is more "ad hoc" than USNWR talking a poll of MFA faculty as to one issue ("reputation"). [So, what makes that USNWR questionnaire "official"? Was it the mailroom boy tasked with taking out a calculator and tallying the scores? Or are you so impressed by the ability of media conglomerates to slap their name on anything that'll make them money? Continuum Publishing, an international publisher, is slapping their name on my and Tom Kealey's rankings, and I'm sure it's bringing in far less coin than the now-self-discredited USNWR methodology did. Should that also sway us in one direction or another, or should we analyze the internal validity of the methodology over time?].

I didn't see the posts about individual programs as being a "protest." Particularly because the schools with "protestors" (and I'm being tongue-in-cheek here; I'm relatively certain those weren't protests) are faring much better in the TSE rankings than they have ever fared in any other ranking ever done.

So, sure. Go ahead and "protest" the first rankings to bring schools to the fore other than Iowa, California at Irvine, Columbia, Johns Hopkins, and a few select others. I dunno, I kind of think having Southern Illinois #25 out of 200+ U.S. graduate creative writing programs ("a top 25 program") is a pretty strong endorsement? Would SIU like to officially protest the rankings, and petition for removal from consideration by MFA applicants? Do you speak for SIU, Big Hark, when you say that their students posting about the program is a "protest" of their top 25 ranking? Am I missing something, and SIU doesn't want to be ranked as one of the best programs in America? Stranger things have happened, so maybe there's some groundswell of angst not reflected on this board (except by one or two people) and certainly never reflected in my private e-mail inbox.

Best,
S.


(This post was edited by umass76 on Sep 5, 2008, 12:37 PM)

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