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LesK
Les
e-mail user

Mar 6, 2010, 8:07 PM

Post #1701 of 2090 (16647 views)
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Re: [gcsumfa] Re: [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Les,

To change the topic--how do you like Cincy so far?


I love it. Quarters are demanding, but they'll be gone soon (when I'm in my reading year). For now, I'm at end of term when most of you are just looking forward to spring break. Yikes.

At UC, the undergrads are much sharper than I expected (I foolishly expected a commuter school....some of the undergrad programs @ UC are actually phenomenal), and I should, I think, have an opportunity to teach several sophomore level courses (CW, Lit, Soph. Comp.) throughout my time here--not just 1st and 2nd quarter Freshman Comp.

Also, the community of students is marvelous & more, they are insanely talented. The faculty I've worked with thus far have been helpful, encouraging, etc. In particularly, the poetry faculty has been incredibly supportive, and seriously willing to help/talk/read, etc., beyond course-oriented help (i.e., want to talk about your third exam area? No problem...)

Oh, & Wayne Miller read @ school yesterday. Next week, Karen Finley (the performance artist) will be in one of my classes and will speak/perform later on campus. & next quarter, I get to take an intensive 5-week workshop with Alice Fulton.

Negatives? This year: the snow (but hey, we still fared better than most of the East Coast).


umass76


Mar 6, 2010, 8:15 PM

Post #1702 of 2090 (16637 views)
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Re: [In reply to] Can't Post

GCSUMFA, one day you'll meet someone who knows me. You know, like the actual knowing of someone, in the actual world of face-to-face interactions. And they'll say, "Sure, I know Seth! Great guy." And if you tell them I sign messages "be well, &c &c" they won't be surprised -- that's how I am. I care about people and I spend hours every week working with strangers to help them with their problems. I get e-mails from all over the country -- daily -- asking for advice about MFA programs and I answer them as best I can. I post on boards to try and get information out there. Every once in a while I come across a cretin online -- these are people who won't use their real names, who (like JM, whose "true colors" are definitely out now) start out by saying nice things (I like your work, I respect you, &c &c) and then go on to spread vicious rumors and innuendo and generally cast aspersions about things they don't know about. I have no compunction about treating such people as the cowards they are -- I give them what they want, which is to be treated like trolls, because they are trolls. Just so, JM: Go back a few pages and s/he will be singing my praises. Now, mystically, messages have surfaced (all private!) pointing the innocent JM to a fiasco from many months back in which Steve Fellner inadvertently implied -- then explicitly retracted -- that I had threatened to sue him for disagreeing with me in an online discussion. Mind you, Steve was gracious about it: he said readers had jumped to a conclusion, that he and I had never spoken, that I had never threatened anyone. He and I made up immediately. I made clear that I am a First Amendment geek and would never threaten to sue someone (I hate litigation anyway) for disagreeing with me. It's an absurdity. So how did that rumor start? Ah -- a little troll, who whispered in Steve's ear, he later said, that as I was a lawyer I would probably sue anyone who said anything bad about me. Is it the same troll who pointed JM to an old thread--pre-Fellner-retraction--about the fiasco? Who knows! Everyone's anonymous! Perhaps JM is the troll. Perhaps there are no private PMs. Perhaps--shocker!--JM was being passive-aggressive in telling me how great my poetry is, how important my research project is, before saying (which is absolutely amazing) that some yahoos calling a conference in New York City to try to destroy me was justified.

GCSUMFA, JM, let's be clear -- you're handles to me, not people. I owe you nothing and don't respect you. You've done nothing to earn anyone's respect -- and I come from a place where respect is earned. I like people -- hell, I love people -- and I'm (almost) unfailingly nice to them, because that's how I was brought up. But my folks didn't bring me up to respect cowards, or people who hide behind anonymity, or people who spread malicious rumors about people they don't know, or people who claim to know -- how in the hell could you? -- what my "true colors" are. I want to be clear on this: I called GCSUMFA a twat, absolutely, and then removed the posting because it wasn't fair to the others here who, unlike JM and GCSUMFA, aren't trolls waiting to misinform others and spread lies at the drop of a hat.

The good thing about the world -- well, one among many -- is I don't need to tell these people what they are. They know, and they act precisely in accordance with it. They can't help it. So why not let the folks here go back to discussing Ph.D. programs, and I'll go back to the many (private!) PM messages telling me to ignore you guys because you're trolls and don't ever do anything useful for anyone? Seriously, JM: Either go to an MFA or don't, but hanging out here just makes no sense whatsoever. What use are you to this community? GCSUMFA, the posts speak for themselves -- you don't know what you're talking about, which is why the operative word in my insult to you was ignorant.

S.


__________



Mar 6, 2010, 8:28 PM

Post #1703 of 2090 (16617 views)
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Re: [umass76] [In reply to] Can't Post

Every once in a while I come across a cretin online -- these are people who won't use their real names, who (like JM, whose "true colors" are definitely out now) start out by saying nice things (I like your work, I respect you, &c &c) and then go on to spread vicious rumors and innuendo and generally cast aspersions about things they don't know about.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: I love the hell out of your work.

Online, you come across as a completely arrogant, slightly paranoid, megalomaniacal douche.

I'm not spreading "rumors". I'm referencing your behavior in this very thread. Recall that you attacked me first (for expressing a benign opinion on who should apply for a PhD) then absolutely blew up because I had the audacity to question your Cartman-esque auth-or-i-taii.

Plus it's hard to play the victim when your critics are mysteriously silenced. (So glad to hear you didn't sue, though. Still and all, would have loved to read that post).

Plus I know too much about you. You've made sure the whole world knows too much about you.

Seriously, dude: enough is enough.


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(This post was edited by Junior Maas on Mar 6, 2010, 8:30 PM)


umass76


Mar 6, 2010, 8:30 PM

Post #1704 of 2090 (16613 views)
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Re: [umass76] [In reply to] Can't Post

P.S. As far as I can recall, GCSUMFA is a man. If he is actually a "she," I would never have used that kind of language. I've called a man a "twat" probably 5 times in my life -- it's not my favorite insult, it's not even in the top 100 (and I'm not big on insults generally, except with trolls) -- but I'm certain I've never said that to a woman. If GCSUMFA is a woman, well, then I do retract that comment and I do apologize. In that case I would probably change the slur to "prick."

JM: I'll say again: I never threatened anyone with legal action. Nor would I. And I'll say also that anyone can go back and see that I entered this thread asking people to post their application lists. Then I made a comment about not applying to Ph.D. programs straight from a B.A. Then you attacked: You said I was just a guy who collects stats, which you knew was untrue. Then you said some BS about liking my work or whatever. Then you continued attacking. I got angry -- that's how things work with interactions. As to your opinion of me: HOLY JESUS could I care less. For all you think you know about me -- please, you know nothing. And the fact that you had to edit your post to take out your repeated charge that I threatened to sue Steve Fellner shows that you don't even read what I say. Christ. Take care of yourself. --S.


(This post was edited by umass76 on Mar 6, 2010, 8:35 PM)


bktv


Mar 6, 2010, 8:41 PM

Post #1705 of 2090 (16592 views)
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Re: [umass76] [In reply to] Can't Post

So I guess now is a bad time to ask a question about the critical PhD at Iowa?


I'll do it anyway, since my original question got buried about three pages back.

Do Lit. PhD's ever take classes in the IWW? What about the summer courses?


(This post was edited by bktv on Mar 6, 2010, 8:45 PM)


prosaic70


Mar 6, 2010, 8:49 PM

Post #1706 of 2090 (16577 views)
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Re: [bktv] [In reply to] Can't Post

haha!

By the way, I don't know. Its just the bemused, resigned tone that got to me, bktv. Best of luck by the way.


umass76


Mar 6, 2010, 8:53 PM

Post #1707 of 2090 (16574 views)
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Re: [bktv] [In reply to] Can't Post

BKTV,

No, it's an okay time. I've participated hugely in mucking up this thread and I definitely owe some recompense. (Not saying I wouldn't have answered you otherwise, or that I didn't feel unfairly provoked, just that I guess I really owe it now -- karma is a whatnot, &c).

I tried to get the IWW to reinstitute the creative-dissertation Ph.D. that UI still has on the books. I thought it would be good for me, and also good for others who might follow -- there really are too few CW Ph.D. options. Unfortunately I was rebuffed (albeit kindly; apparently it's on the books but, in the view of the IWW, shouldn't be).

I mention this because the relationship b/t the IWW and English Department at UI is frosty at best -- that's one reason the creative-dissertation Ph.D. can't exist at Iowa, and perhaps the main reason Dey House is far, far away from the English Department building (it wasn't always). The point being: They're two separate worlds. There is almost no interaction whatsoever. Ph.D. students can't apply to take IWW workshops, to my knowledge, and IWW students have no interest (typically) in taking classes for credit when they can take no-grade seminars (and no-attendance-taken seminars) through the IWW.

Shane McCrae is a great guy and a great poet who has an MFA from the IWW and is now in the UI Ph.D. program -- if you're Facebook friends with him, or "friend" him on Facebook, he might be able to give you a better scoop than I can. I'll just say that you need to exercise caution in assuming any sort of coordination between these two departments at Iowa. As I said, in my experience, they're separate worlds.

Be well (yes! seriously!),
S.

P.S. Re: summer courses, I think they're open to anyone nationally if you're willing to pay and if your work is accepted by the workshop leader. I don't think UI students have any special priority on that.


(This post was edited by umass76 on Mar 6, 2010, 8:56 PM)


LesK
Les
e-mail user

Mar 6, 2010, 8:54 PM

Post #1708 of 2090 (16573 views)
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Re: [umass76] [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote
As far as I can recall, GCSUMFA is a man. If he is actually a "she," I would never have used that kind of language. I've called a man a "twat" probably 5 times in my life -- it's not my favorite insult, it's not even in the top 100 (and I'm not big on insults generally, except with trolls) -- but I'm certain I've never said that to a woman. If GCSUMFA is a woman, well, then I do retract that comment and I do apologize. In that case I would probably change the slur to "prick."


Dude, that still strikes me as seriously sexist. Gender should never matter in an insult. I, personally, hate everyone equally. ;-)

To be fair, Seth, did you not begin the discussion of CW PhD v. the "semi-trad" PhD like the one you attend?

Personally, I think we should all step back for a second & think a little bit about ethos as I teach my students....

What kind of persona do you want to present on this thread? Me? I stick around for three reasons: 1) it's a bad habit 2) I like seeing people dream and succeed (congrats, btw, to bordercrosser for more great news) 3) I hope I can help a little now and again.

Generally speaking, I function under the assumption that those of us who are not refreshing the boards every hour hoping for news and getting dizzy each time an unfamiliar area code comes up on caller ID are here for similar reasons. More, I assume that most of us really do want to help in whatever small way we can.

So...if we erase the name calling, the contentiousness, the blah, blah, blah, what we have might actually be an interesting debate about the viability of a CW PhD.

Now, let's look at this rhetorically....does Seth have a vested interest in suggesting that a program like Wis-Mad may be superior to the CW PhD track? We have to say, yes, it may appear that way regardless of whether or not the information presented by him is skewed by the fact of his attendance. What about gcsumfa? Does the fact of his attendance at one of the better CW PhD's suggest that he might have a vested interest in the outcome of this debate? Umm...yeah.

Does this suggest that either will have more success than the other on the job market (or than me, one of the horrified CW PhD, poets both have been arguing over the viability of their employment)? Actually, no.

No one has noted that there is more to a hire than a book (or two or three). A CV is, remember, please, more than one's creative publications. And if it isn't...well, I'm sorry your CV looks like mine, but you might want to stay off the job market a while....

Moreover, no one has yet noted that jobs searches can be very specific....Getting a CW PhD with an exam area (and scholarly publications) in Victorian Lit.... I might know a place where you can get a gig....because that college has a need in that area....and the college is small enough that they'd like someone who can do multiple things and carry a 4/4 load.

So, if we're going to continue on whether or not one can get hired with a CW PhD, can we please, please focus on that which might help these folks?

Because the truth is....that job that Coconut Joe posted earlier....at Wayne State College (not University, College) got 800 applicants. So, getting a TT job, even at a lower tier school is amazingly difficult.

How might one make it less difficult? What should you do (aside from publish 3 books...we get that part already) to stand out from the other thousand people who want the job you want? What sort of service work? What sort of editorial work? What sort of scholarly work?

Because, in my opinion, that's the bottom line. You have to stand out. Or win a National Book Award. Or _________. And for some jobs, you should be prepared to do both.


gcsumfa


Mar 6, 2010, 8:55 PM

Post #1709 of 2090 (16570 views)
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Re: [umass76] [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
GCSUMFA, one day you'll meet someone who knows me. You know, like the actual knowing of someone, in the actual world of face-to-face interactions.


Actually, I do know people who know you; it's a small world. However, we never discuss you--I just know that they know you, but you're not important enough for me to bring your name up in a conversation. It's a small world, this CW world. I'm sure you're a nice guy, but just because you're a nice guy in the real world, doesn't mean that you're not a bit "off" in the Cyber World, like flying off the handle whenever someone dissagrees with you. I guess it's just a random coincidence that I can type your name into Google and come across numerous flame wars with your hat in the center of the ring. Whatever--like I said, I DO think you're a nice guy. I mean this, Seth--I really do. But you take the criticism of your IDEAS personally. Notice how, in my post that started this exchange, I focused on your ideas. I said that your understanding of the job market seemed "off." I never said you were a bad person or called you any names.

But whatever--engaging with you is a full-time job. You win! Congrats!

You're a great guy! Seth Abramson for the Nobel Peace Prize!


In Reply To
GCSUMFA, the posts speak for themselves -- you don't know what you're talking about, which is why the operative word in my insult to you was ignorant.

S.


Yes! You're right. I don't know what I'm talking about. You win! I'm an ignorant "twat"! You're a great guy! You win!


gcsumfa


Mar 6, 2010, 8:59 PM

Post #1710 of 2090 (16563 views)
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Re: [LesK] Re: [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
Les,

To change the topic--how do you like Cincy so far?


I love it. Quarters are demanding, but they'll be gone soon (when I'm in my reading year). For now, I'm at end of term when most of you are just looking forward to spring break. Yikes.

At UC, the undergrads are much sharper than I expected (I foolishly expected a commuter school....some of the undergrad programs @ UC are actually phenomenal), and I should, I think, have an opportunity to teach several sophomore level courses (CW, Lit, Soph. Comp.) throughout my time here--not just 1st and 2nd quarter Freshman Comp.

Also, the community of students is marvelous & more, they are insanely talented. The faculty I've worked with thus far have been helpful, encouraging, etc. In particularly, the poetry faculty has been incredibly supportive, and seriously willing to help/talk/read, etc., beyond course-oriented help (i.e., want to talk about your third exam area? No problem...)

Oh, & Wayne Miller read @ school yesterday. Next week, Karen Finley (the performance artist) will be in one of my classes and will speak/perform later on campus. & next quarter, I get to take an intensive 5-week workshop with Alice Fulton.

Negatives? This year: the snow (but hey, we still fared better than most of the East Coast).


Sounds awesome. I love where I'm at, but I've always admired UC's program--at least from what I'd read and heard about it.

Brock Clarke is one of my favorite writers, and I LOVE the Cincinnati Review.


umass76


Mar 6, 2010, 9:08 PM

Post #1711 of 2090 (16549 views)
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Re: [gcsumfa] [In reply to] Can't Post

GSCUMFA,

Now wait, though -- that's not fair. Wouldn't you agree it's difficult to read tone over the internet? Don't you think that sometimes misunderstandings happen because none of us actually know each other or know each other's intentions? Consider: My basic intentions (as JM says) are pretty much clear as to MFAs: you guys know at least some of the things that motivate me. JM might add to that some pernicious motives -- like I somehow think being a freelance journo for Poets & Writers, someone whose articles stir up things in the halls of power, is going to make me a famous poet and loved by the powerful -- but you guys know that I'm a stats geek w/o expertise; you know I believe in the MFA system; you know I give a lot of time to help people I don't know online and off; you know I love to argue; you know I write "like a lawyer" and don't seem to be able to help it. &c &c.

I don't know who JM is. Man, woman? Old, young? Poet, novelist? Good people, bad people? Well-intentioned, ill-intentioned? All I know is that this is the handle of some person or persons who have been on this board a long time and who I believe I have seen taking a rather cynical, acidic tone with people in the past. We can all agree JM said something to me that s/he probably wouldn't say if we were speaking face-to-face: I have no doubt JM knows how hard I work on MFA issues, and has seen me first-hand deploy that knowledge, and so when s/he says I'm just someone who asks people where they applied the situation's pretty simple -- some person I don't know is trying to call me out on something they know I care about for no reason.

Okay, I get it -- this board isn't about my psychodramas -- but why do you assume the internet is so easy to navigate for someone with strong views, strong passions, who puts his hard work and time and energy where his mouth is, and who's trying to do something controversial? The internet is no different in composition of good folks to bad folks as the world is -- why shouldn't I assume JM is one of the bad eggs I'd never have anything to do with in real life? When they only thing I know about him/her is that they're trying to start something with me? I backed off my statement about CW Ph.D.s when I realized the OP had an MA -- I made clear my comments were about B.A.-holders. It was obvious enough that I wanted to promote my program, because I actually believe in it(!) I think it helps people(!) So what? JM wanted to talk about my research and why it was bogus -- all the while saying s/he thought it was helpful. That just further made me suspicious -- why wouldn't it, that contradiction? So s/he successfully got under my skin, I reacted, and suddenly I'm some bully? I'm like (I'm going to use a word you think I use passive-aggressively now) "Dude, why talk to a stranger like that unless you're trying to be a douchebag?"

S.


__________



Mar 6, 2010, 9:11 PM

Post #1712 of 2090 (16545 views)
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Re: [umass76] [In reply to] Can't Post

No. You need to go back a few posts.

You wrote this:

those without MFAs should not apply to CW PhDs. It is simply not advised, and at this point -- given the competitiveness of the field -- it would take an absolutely extraordinary writer plus extraordinary fit (getting exactly the right reader at the right time) for a non-MFAed candidate to beat out those applying for CW PhDs, who are almost always among the top MFA graduates (for that year) in the country.

And I responded:

But this does suggest some kind of tiered, non-subjective system, where an MFA'd writer is better than...anyone without an MFA. Not to mention wacky administrators. (Do I really want this talented writer over someone learning to play the pro circuit?) Just seems like a lousy way to think about writing -- even if it's just your own self holding you back. Heck, someone in this thread got into a PhD without an MFA. If what you want is a useful degree, as opposed to an ART CERTIFICATE! and two or three years twiddling your thumbs, I mean, why not?

Hardly inflammatory, and meant to encourage discussion. Even ends with a question.

Your reply:

I know you guys mean well...My job is to look at trends in the aggregate; anecdotal information can be exceedingly misleading....being told by well-intended advisers like you that, if s/he is actually talented, s/he should be able to crack a top Ph.D. program without an MFA -- is incalculable....how can you, or anyone, humanely ask anyone to shoot for those odds...

That is when I questioned -- not attacked, or personally attacked -- your self-awarded "expert" status -- in relation to this one issue: after you threw out a whole bunch of "aggregate" info that by your own estimation, does not add up to much. And after you implied that for anyone else to even muse about these subjects is "inhumane", the damage "incalculable"

My god, the hubris! I've tried to explain that this is what people object to: not your opinions, but the way you try to eradicate all discussion, based on you the apparent belief that your efforts -- polls, phone calls, whatever else -- make you somehow omnipotent in all things P&W. Or that you treat you opinions as fact.

EDIT: I did not set out to "start anything" with you. I...asked a question. About applying to PhDs. And I absolutely would say those things to your face. I am not attacking you as a person. I'm questioning some of your ideas about MFAs. (And your work and new business do get more exposure by blogging, posting on MFA boards, etc. I mentioned that as a benefit in response to your litany of abuses you've said to have suffered by ranking programs. Not malicious. Not controversial. Again, not personal.)

Now if you'll excuse me, it's Saturday night, and this cretin has a James Cameron movie to attend!


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(This post was edited by Junior Maas on Mar 6, 2010, 9:19 PM)


gcsumfa


Mar 6, 2010, 9:15 PM

Post #1713 of 2090 (16538 views)
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Re: [LesK] [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


Moreover, no one has yet noted that jobs searches can be very specific....Getting a CW PhD with an exam area (and scholarly publications) in Victorian Lit.... I might know a place where you can get a gig....because that college has a need in that area....and the college is small enough that they'd like someone who can do multiple things and carry a 4/4 load.

So, if we're going to continue on whether or not one can get hired with a CW PhD, can we please, please focus on that which might help these folks?

Because the truth is....that job that Coconut Joe posted earlier....at Wayne State College (not University, College) got 800 applicants. So, getting a TT job, even at a lower tier school is amazingly difficult.

How might one make it less difficult? What should you do (aside from publish 3 books...we get that part already) to stand out from the other thousand people who want the job you want? What sort of service work? What sort of editorial work? What sort of scholarly work?

Because, in my opinion, that's the bottom line. You have to stand out. Or win a National Book Award. Or _________. And for some jobs, you should be prepared to do both.


Thanks, Les. This was really my main point--the jobs at smaller schools need people who can do more than just teach CW, and the people who are usually established enough to get a job just teaching CW, well, they don't typically apply for jobs teaching a 4/4 of world lit, comp, and creative writing 101 to 18 year old kids in the middle of Nebraska.

So, for many of us who won't leave our programs with multiple books, it's important to consider what else we can bring to the table to make ourselves desirable for these kinds of jobs.

For starters, unlike the MFA star poet with 10 books, the PhD grad has passed doctoral exams, which qualifies him as a generalist. This is a professional qualification, and it matters to the 5 people in the entire department who have to teach in a billion areas, unlike many of their peers at R1's--places that emphasize research over teaching.


umass76


Mar 6, 2010, 9:15 PM

Post #1714 of 2090 (16536 views)
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Re: [LesK] [In reply to] Can't Post

Les,

Actually -- to be fair -- I started a conversation comparing semi-trad Ph.D. programs to trad Ph.D. programs. That you (who seem to be acting totally in good faith) would think that I started a "discussion of CW Ph.D. v. the 'semi-trad' Ph.D." just shows that when OPs got offended by what I said about my program the conversation took on a turn I did not intend. Go back and read what I said (well, OK, that would take a lot of time and I don't really expect you or anyone to), but you will see what I say is true.

I know all about ethos -- and I know I wreck mine when I get angry at people rather than pretending to be someone who's a dispassionate person. But here's the thing, Les: I had ethos for 7 years as a public defender, negotiating cases with prosecutors, and it's because I was a straight shooter -- I never hid my emotions. People knew where they stood with me and I think they trusted that more than someone who's always being political. Consider: How does JM's charge that I'm doing all this for political reasons square with the fact that I regularly let my passion destroy my ethos? The point being, clearly I've got no gameplan. Or else I am a super idiot.

As to how to stand out -- yes, I agree entirely, Les, but that was my point about a semi-trad Ph.D. I honestly believe it helps one stand out in a crowd. That was the very reason I brought it up! Believe me, I'm here not to argue (if I can avoid it) but to try to help (if I can).

S.


umass76


Mar 6, 2010, 9:16 PM

Post #1715 of 2090 (16534 views)
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Re: [Junior Maas] [In reply to] Can't Post

JM,

Have fun. We don't see eye-to-eye on what happened here.

S.

P.S. You wrote, of me: "[Y]ou implied that for anyone else to even muse about these subjects was inhumane..." Amazing, man (or woman) -- because you actually have in your post the fact that I said no such thing. In the context of believing (I later discovered, wrongly) that you were advocating B.A.-holders try to get into CW Ph.D. programs, I said that asking a young person to bang their head against the wall like that was inhumane. And I stand by that! The good news is that you weren't saying that, which was apparent immediately after the post you cited above, when I came back on and said, My bad, looks like person may actually have an MA, and I misunderstood. So no -- I didn't say it was inhumane for others to muse about these subjects. And if I question your integrity, your honesty, and your good faith it's because (as I've said before on this thread) you, for no reason I can see, continually misstate what I've said to make me look like precisely the megalomaniac you'll later claim (several times, in several iterations) you think I am. That's BS.


(This post was edited by umass76 on Mar 6, 2010, 9:20 PM)


cliffs88


Mar 6, 2010, 9:19 PM

Post #1716 of 2090 (16523 views)
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Re: [umass76] [In reply to] Can't Post

Seth is a poopy head

-S


__________



Mar 6, 2010, 9:20 PM

Post #1717 of 2090 (16521 views)
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Re: [umass76] [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, it's all there in writing. I reposted the bits you left out.


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gcsumfa


Mar 6, 2010, 9:20 PM

Post #1718 of 2090 (16520 views)
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Re: [umass76] [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
GSCUMFA,

Now wait, though -- that's not fair. Wouldn't you agree it's difficult to read tone over the internet? Don't you think that sometimes misunderstandings happen because none of us actually know each other or know each other's intentions? Consider: My basic intentions (as JM says) are pretty much clear as to MFAs: you guys know at least some of the things that motivate me. JM might add to that some pernicious motives -- like I somehow think being a freelance journo for Poets & Writers, someone whose articles stir up things in the halls of power, is going to make me a famous poet and loved by the powerful -- but you guys know that I'm a stats geek w/o expertise; you know I believe in the MFA system; you know I give a lot of time to help people I don't know online and off; you know I love to argue; you know I write "like a lawyer" and don't seem to be able to help it. &c &c.

I don't know who JM is. Man, woman? Old, young? Poet, novelist? Good people, bad people? Well-intentioned, ill-intentioned? All I know is that this is the handle of some person or persons who have been on this board a long time and who I believe I have seen taking a rather cynical, acidic tone with people in the past. We can all agree JM said something to me that s/he probably wouldn't say if we were speaking face-to-face: I have no doubt JM knows how hard I work on MFA issues, and has seen me first-hand deploy that knowledge, and so when s/he says I'm just someone who asks people where they applied the situation's pretty simple -- some person I don't know is trying to call me out on something they know I care about for no reason.

Okay, I get it -- this board isn't about my psychodramas -- but why do you assume the internet is so easy to navigate for someone with strong views, strong passions, who puts his hard work and time and energy where his mouth is, and who's trying to do something controversial? The internet is no different in composition of good folks to bad folks as the world is -- why shouldn't I assume JM is one of the bad eggs I'd never have anything to do with in real life? When they only thing I know about him/her is that they're trying to start something with me? I backed off my statement about CW Ph.D.s when I realized the OP had an MA -- I made clear my comments were about B.A.-holders. It was obvious enough that I wanted to promote my program, because I actually believe in it(!) I think it helps people(!) So what? JM wanted to talk about my research and why it was bogus -- all the while saying s/he thought it was helpful. That just further made me suspicious -- why wouldn't it, that contradiction? So s/he successfully got under my skin, I reacted, and suddenly I'm some bully? I'm like (I'm going to use a word you think I use passive-aggressively now) "Dude, why talk to a stranger like that unless you're trying to be a douchebag?"

S.


I don't know, Seth. I guess everyone is just out to get you.


umass76


Mar 6, 2010, 9:23 PM

Post #1719 of 2090 (16512 views)
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Re: [gcsumfa] [In reply to] Can't Post

GCSUMFA: It's breathtaking. You're a marvel, seriously. To take what I said that way -- wow. How about you look like, you know, three posts up: JM is blatantly misquoting me to make me look like a jerk.

What I said: It's inhumane to tell a B.A.-holder that if they were talented they could compete with MFAs and get into a CW Ph.D.

What JM said I said
: It's inhumane for anyone but me to muse about MFA-related subjects.

It's right there. It's in front of your computer screen at this very moment.


This person is being a douchebag. And your reaction is that? And you wonder why I react like this?

{Shakes head}.



(This post was edited by umass76 on Mar 6, 2010, 9:25 PM)


gcsumfa


Mar 6, 2010, 9:25 PM

Post #1720 of 2090 (16507 views)
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Re: [umass76] [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
GCSUMFA: It's breathtaking. You're a marvel, seriously. To take what I said that way -- wow. How about you look like, you know, three posts up: JM is blatantly misquoting me to make me look like a jerk.

What I said: It's inhumane to tell a B.A.-holder that if they were talented they could compete with MFAs and get into a CW Ph.D.

What JM said I said
: It's inhumane for anyone but me to muse about MFA-related subjects.

It's right there. It's in front of your computer screen at this very moment.


This person is being a douchebag. And your reaction is that? And you wonder why I react like this? {Shakes head}.


I don't even know what to say to this other than: get some help.


umass76


Mar 6, 2010, 9:26 PM

Post #1721 of 2090 (16502 views)
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Re: [gcsumfa] [In reply to] Can't Post

Wait -- now I'm fascinated. You are a spectacular douchebag. I don't want to meet you -- I want to meet whoever it is (and there must be someone, somewhere) who loves you.

[NB: On second thought, I ought to get back to my life. And stop speaking with two people I wouldn't give two seconds to anywhere but on this screen. Take care everyone. And GCSUMFA, you can call me a bloody murderer now if you want. I'm done here -- not coming back to this conversation. But I do appreciate the professional advice -- and the subtle threat. I just realized I know who you are.].


(This post was edited by umass76 on Mar 6, 2010, 9:32 PM)


gcsumfa


Mar 6, 2010, 9:29 PM

Post #1722 of 2090 (16490 views)
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Re: [umass76] [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Wait -- now I'm fascinated. You are a spectacular douchebag. I don't want to meet you -- I want to meet whoever it is (and there must be someone, somewhere) who loves you.


Lots of people love your poetry--including my peers who awarded you the New Issues prize.

However, you might want to stop posting, if you can't refrain from calling people "douchebags" and "twats"--this thread might still be here when you go on the job market.


__________



Mar 6, 2010, 9:31 PM

Post #1723 of 2090 (16485 views)
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Re: [umass76] [In reply to] Can't Post

Seth, I posted your exact quote. For godssakes.


six five four three two one 0 ->

(This post was edited by Junior Maas on Mar 6, 2010, 9:32 PM)


LesK
Les
e-mail user

Mar 6, 2010, 9:32 PM

Post #1724 of 2090 (16484 views)
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Re: [umass76] [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok....so how does one stand out?

Here's a suggestion:

http://call-for-papers.sas.upenn.edu/node/35954 *

*and note the person to whom you're sending the proposals is a doctoral student @ UC.... Think that might stand out? (GCSUMFA...I'm sort of posting this with you in mind....might be up your alley. We'll drink or something.)

Here's another:

http://www.bestnewpoets.org/

(Seth, you did that, right? Or that got done to you, whatevs...)

So, as a writer, regardless of the shape of your diss....what other tips for navigating grad school (and "CV Building") do you have? And how many of those ideas would help getting into a PhD?


LesK
Les
e-mail user

Mar 6, 2010, 9:34 PM

Post #1725 of 2090 (16476 views)
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Re: [LesK] [In reply to] Can't Post

For the record....sorry everyone. I suck at peacemaking (thank goodness I'm a poet).

Paper write.

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