»

Subscribe | Give a Gift Subscription

Log In or Register | Help | Contact Us | Donate

Advanced Search

Main Index » Writing and Publishing » MFA Programs
creative writing ph.d. ?
Edit your profilePrivate messages Search postsWho's online?
You are not signed in. Click here to sign in.
If you are not a member, Register here!
136614 registered users
First page Previous page 1 ... 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 ... 84 Next page Last page  View All


sicofelephants


e-mail user

Mar 3, 2010, 12:44 PM

Post #1576 of 2090 (15651 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bordercrosser] Re: [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks! I have a feeling there's a rejection awaiting me, but it's at least good to know I'll have that information by the end of the week. I just want this whole thing to be over, haha.


bktv


Mar 3, 2010, 1:11 PM

Post #1577 of 2090 (15596 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Rambler] Re: DFW (uncanny) [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's not forget that we have (already) had a few acceptances in this thread:

rneighb is in at Texas A&M
bordercrosser in at UW-Milwaukee
and prosaic in at Missouri, which, by the way, kicks my ass. I am very fond of Missouri's program.

Congrats again, all!

Also, if Cincy has notified, I guess I'm really only waiting on Ohio and (maybe) USC.


(This post was edited by bktv on Mar 3, 2010, 1:13 PM)


TC3


Mar 3, 2010, 1:31 PM

Post #1578 of 2090 (15561 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sicofelephants] Re: [In reply to] Can't Post

I was wondering if anyone had a sense of SUNY Binghamton's program? Anything, really? In terms of creative writing PhDs, it isn't up there with Denver or Ohio, obviously, but the overall English program seems to be strong.

I'm just curious because it will be a while before it sends out any notifications (earliest, probably, during the last week of March) and I really have no sense of m chances there.


umass76


Mar 3, 2010, 1:34 PM

Post #1579 of 2090 (15554 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Coconut Joe] Where Did You Apply? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi CJ,

I was thinking more of a TT CW job. You're definitely right in all you said about a Lit. TT job.

Be well,
Seth


bordercrosser


Mar 3, 2010, 1:46 PM

Post #1580 of 2090 (15534 views)
Shortcut
Re: [TC3] Re: [In reply to] Can't Post

TC3 - what genre are you applying in? I'm applying to programs in poetry & considering applying to Binghamton, but then ended up not applying. I talked to a bunch of past graduates of the program in making that decision, mostly because it didn't quite seem to be the right program for me (their poetry faculty seems to be mostly narrative and not as open to other styles).


TC3


Mar 3, 2010, 1:56 PM

Post #1581 of 2090 (15516 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bordercrosser] Re: [In reply to] Can't Post

bordercrosser,

I'm applying in poetry. I'm not an "experimental" or "(post)-avant-garde" writer by any means, but I also don't write Billy-Collins-type poems either (I know, an awfully reductive way to treat contemporary poetry--oh well).

Did the graduates tell you that the faculty was more focused on narrative poetry? As in that's what the faculty publish or as in that's what the grad students are expected to write?


bordercrosser


Mar 3, 2010, 2:07 PM

Post #1582 of 2090 (15497 views)
Shortcut
Re: [TC3] Re: [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi TC3,

Well, it was a mixed response. One writer I talked to seem to feel more limited by the faculty's aesthetic leanings (and to feel more that the faculty wanted the students to write more like them). Another writer seemed to agree that the faculty did seem more narratively inclined, but that they were more open to a wider range of aesthetics. Having come from a program where the majority of my cohort is based in the narrative tradition, I was interested in going to a program where my cohort would be encouraged to have a broader range of aesthetics -- but one of several reasons I chose not to apply (the others are more personal so probably not helpful to others). One thing that helped me when I was making that decision was to get ahold of some of the books that have come out by some of the graduates of the program (note that Metta Sama published her 1st book of poetry under Lydia Melvin) and also to take a look at some of the faculty work, if you haven't yet already. I think I found all that info from their website though it took some digging.

Hope that helps.


(This post was edited by bordercrosser on Mar 3, 2010, 2:09 PM)


kliq


Mar 3, 2010, 2:42 PM

Post #1583 of 2090 (15461 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bordercrosser] Re: [In reply to] Can't Post

I doubt I'll hear from Binghamton for a while...the lady in admissions said that anything sent to them after Jan 15th hasn't even been processed yet.


kmccord1


Mar 3, 2010, 4:17 PM

Post #1584 of 2090 (15362 views)
Shortcut
Re: [abcd] Re: DFW (uncanny) [In reply to] Can't Post

Would someone post a link to the Grad Cafe forum ya'll are checking?


abcd

e-mail user

Mar 3, 2010, 4:24 PM

Post #1585 of 2090 (15351 views)
Shortcut
Re: [kmccord1] Re: DFW (uncanny) [In reply to] Can't Post

Surely, kmccord1!

grad cafe admissions http://www.thegradcafe.com/survey/index.php


bordercrosser


Mar 4, 2010, 2:23 AM

Post #1586 of 2090 (15194 views)
Shortcut
USC [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi all,

Came home & received an e-mail in my inbox -- I'm on the waitlist for USC.


gcsumfa


Mar 4, 2010, 2:55 AM

Post #1587 of 2090 (15185 views)
Shortcut
Re: [umass76] Where Did You Apply? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Hi CJ,

I was thinking more of a TT CW job. You're definitely right in all you said about a Lit. TT job.

Be well,
Seth


Seth, I don't think you have "years to go" before you're a good candidate for a TT position, unless you're only interested in a position at a top 10 MFA program. A PhD and 2 books is more than enough for a college or directional university. Then, you work your way up.


rneighb


Mar 4, 2010, 8:07 AM

Post #1588 of 2090 (15161 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bordercrosser] USC [In reply to] Can't Post

Congrats, bordercrosser! USC is such a great program.


TC3


Mar 4, 2010, 10:51 AM

Post #1589 of 2090 (15102 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bordercrosser] USC [In reply to] Can't Post

WOW bordercrosser!

I need to hire you to tutor me on how to apply! Effusive congrats!


umass76


Mar 4, 2010, 12:13 PM

Post #1590 of 2090 (15050 views)
Shortcut
Re: [gcsumfa] Where Did You Apply? [In reply to] Can't Post

GCSUMFA,

The thing, though, is that I don't have a Ph.D. yet -- I won't have one for many years. I have an MFA, one book with a small independent press, and one with a university press that won't be out for another year. And then many years of magazine publications that committees don't necessarily care much about (much like my law degree) except for volume (which I suppose I do have). The folks getting hired now at universities (even those without MFA programs, i.e. people getting hired to teach undergrads at UC-Denver, for instance) have between 3 and 5 books. I want to emphasize: I'm not complaining one iota, I'm happy with the direction I'm taking, I just want to be clear on my bio and why I say that I am still a ways away from a TT position. I also do think it's important that young poets be told that the old "1 book = full-time gig" equation died out about 20 years ago, right around the time MFA programs and their kin began graduating about 15,000 to 20,000 new poets per decade. No reason for despair, though -- it just means we have to be more creative. My own take on this is the ability to teach pre-law at the college level and a traditional doctorate; also (though I continue to stress how unplanned this was) a body of work and writings on MFA programs that might make me an attractive job candidate at universities with large undergrad creative writing programs, where advising young writers regarding graduate school is a big part of the position. When I've applied in the past (less than a handful of times) for TT positions, I've received some nice notes in reply but no interviews -- and about 50% of the positions actually ended up getting pulled (which is far, far more common than people realize; it's not just hard to get an interview, it's hard to find a job search that doesn't have the plug pulled on it before the interview process begins). But again, I'm not complaining, that's not really the direction I want to head in right now anyway.

Be well,
Seth


gcsumfa


Mar 4, 2010, 12:21 PM

Post #1591 of 2090 (15042 views)
Shortcut
Re: [umass76] Where Did You Apply? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
GCSUMFA,

The thing, though, is that I don't have a Ph.D. yet -- I won't have one for many years. I have an MFA, one book with a small independent press, and one with a university press that won't be out for another year. And then many years of magazine publications that committees don't necessarily care much about (much like my law degree) except for volume (which I suppose I do have). The folks getting hired now at universities (even those without MFA programs, i.e. people getting hired to teach undergrads at UC-Denver, for instance) have between 3 and 5 books. I want to emphasize: I'm not complaining one iota, I'm happy with the direction I'm taking, I just want to be clear on my bio and why I say that I am still a ways away from a TT position. I also do think it's important that young poets be told that the old "1 book = full-time gig" equation died out about 20 years ago, right around the time MFA programs and their kin began graduating about 15,000 to 20,000 new poets per decade. No reason for despair, though -- it just means we have to be more creative. My own take on this is the ability to teach pre-law at the college level and a traditional doctorate; also (though I continue to stress how unplanned this was) a body of work and writings on MFA programs that might make me an attractive job candidate at universities with large undergrad creative writing programs, where advising young writers regarding graduate school is a big part of the position. When I've applied in the past (less than a handful of times) for TT positions, I've received some nice notes in reply but no interviews -- and about 50% of the positions actually ended up getting pulled (which is far, far more common than people realize; it's not just hard to get an interview, it's hard to find a job search that doesn't have the plug pulled on it before the interview process begins). But again, I'm not complaining, that's not really the direction I want to head in right now anyway.

Be well,
Seth


I guess I'm just surprised that the young poets--the asst. profs at small liberal arts colleges and regional uni's--who are now being hired have 3-5 books. I know a bunch of fiction writers with PhD's who have landed jobs at similar institutions with a PhD and no book. I realize that poets tend to publish more than fiction writers, but that's still a pretty stark difference


gcsumfa


Mar 4, 2010, 12:21 PM

Post #1592 of 2090 (15039 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bordercrosser] USC [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Hi all,

Came home & received an e-mail in my inbox -- I'm on the waitlist for USC.


Congrats!


bordercrosser


Mar 4, 2010, 12:23 PM

Post #1593 of 2090 (15036 views)
Shortcut
Re: [gcsumfa] USC [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks everyone!


Rambler


Mar 4, 2010, 12:49 PM

Post #1594 of 2090 (14996 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bordercrosser] USC [In reply to] Can't Post

Congrats all who've heard good news. Soo soo happy for you.


Coconut Joe



Mar 4, 2010, 1:03 PM

Post #1595 of 2090 (14990 views)
Shortcut
Re: [umass76] Where Did You Apply? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
GCSUMFA,

The thing, though, is that I don't have a Ph.D. yet -- I won't have one for many years. I have an MFA, one book with a small independent press, and one with a university press that won't be out for another year. And then many years of magazine publications that committees don't necessarily care much about (much like my law degree) except for volume (which I suppose I do have). The folks getting hired now at universities (even those without MFA programs, i.e. people getting hired to teach undergrads at UC-Denver, for instance) have between 3 and 5 books. I want to emphasize: I'm not complaining one iota, I'm happy with the direction I'm taking, I just want to be clear on my bio and why I say that I am still a ways away from a TT position. I also do think it's important that young poets be told that the old "1 book = full-time gig" equation died out about 20 years ago, right around the time MFA programs and their kin began graduating about 15,000 to 20,000 new poets per decade. No reason for despair, though -- it just means we have to be more creative. My own take on this is the ability to teach pre-law at the college level and a traditional doctorate; also (though I continue to stress how unplanned this was) a body of work and writings on MFA programs that might make me an attractive job candidate at universities with large undergrad creative writing programs, where advising young writers regarding graduate school is a big part of the position. When I've applied in the past (less than a handful of times) for TT positions, I've received some nice notes in reply but no interviews -- and about 50% of the positions actually ended up getting pulled (which is far, far more common than people realize; it's not just hard to get an interview, it's hard to find a job search that doesn't have the plug pulled on it before the interview process begins). But again, I'm not complaining, that's not really the direction I want to head in right now anyway.

Be well,
Seth



I often think you got a raw deal with Wisconsin. Don't get me wrong, it's a decent program, but I think you could have done a lot better. Ph.D. programs like Cornell offer you a stipend of 26K per year (a 5-year funding package with 3 yrs of fellowship-no teaching). Even Chicago's funding is around 23K plus summer funding. I guess you can try top English Ph.D. programs after getting an MA from UW. And try to hit the job market before you hit 40. Believe me, age becomes a factor when you're over 40.


belgium


Mar 4, 2010, 1:07 PM

Post #1596 of 2090 (14984 views)
Shortcut
Re: [umass76] Where Did You Apply? [In reply to] Can't Post

Seth,

How essential do you think the PhD is in landing a TT CW position? Given that you already have the MFA and 2 books (with hopefully more to come), what's the added benefit of a PhD? In other words, should you get a third book accepted but become ABD, do you think you'd still have a decent shot of landing TT?



Ridiculous Words


abcd

e-mail user

Mar 4, 2010, 2:20 PM

Post #1597 of 2090 (14929 views)
Shortcut
Re: [bordercrosser] USC [In reply to] Can't Post

Ditto TC3's reply, bordercrosser. You are growing quite a list there! Congratulations!!


gcsumfa


Mar 4, 2010, 2:57 PM

Post #1598 of 2090 (14898 views)
Shortcut
Re: [belgium] Where Did You Apply? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Seth,

How essential do you think the PhD is in landing a TT CW position? Given that you already have the MFA and 2 books (with hopefully more to come), what's the added benefit of a PhD? In other words, should you get a third book accepted but become ABD, do you think you'd still have a decent shot of landing TT?


Not to speak for Seth, but the PhD qualifies writers for more jobs, like jobs at smaller schools that require the writer to teach more than just creative writing. A typical teaching load at a small liberal arts college is a 4/4 of undergrad CW, lit, and comp.

Basically, it works like this in CW: "the smaller the school, the bigger the degree, and the bigger the school, the more pubs count."

There is obviously a lot of overlap in the above equation, but my research has found the above to be true, at least in fiction. The PhD, then, allows the CW'er to cover all of his bases. Something we rarely discuss here is how CW "jobs" differ by institution type. Often, we discuss all CW "jobs" like they're all located in top 10 MFA programs, but this isn't the case. Most of the entry level-type jobs are at places that can't afford to hire someone to just teach CW--they need the asst. prof to teach a range of courses, in addition to CW.


umass76


Mar 4, 2010, 4:04 PM

Post #1599 of 2090 (14850 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Coconut Joe] Where Did You Apply? [In reply to] Can't Post

CJ,

LOL. I appreciate your candor. Sort of. But as I always tell people: I author rankings, I don't live by them -- nor should anyone. To explain (and I say all this as a way to promote my program and issue a warning to other writers, not merely as autobiography): UW-Madison is the only Ph.D. program of its kind in the United States. It is the model for the Ph.D. program (I believe) of the future in CW: a traditional Ph.D. that takes numerous steps to integrate a CW component without becoming a less marketable CW Ph.D. (to be clear, I applied to CW Ph.D. programs and got into many; I support the idea; I think they offer lots of time for writing and that's invaluable; their marketability for those who already have an MFA is suspect, but that's a different question and in no way devalues the attractions of getting one). Try to send a creative portfolio in your application to Chicago's traditional Ph.D. program -- once they're done crying with laughter, they'll take turns putting a zippo beneath it to see who's willing to put their fingers closest to the flame (you know, a version of adcom "hot potato"). Or try taking an MFA workshop for doctoral credit in Chicago's traditio -- oh, wait, UC doesn't have an MFA. You see my point. But I think the more important thing is this: creative writers generally don't do very well in applying to traditional Ph.D. programs because they often lack the training to make their application portfolio (i.e. critical writing sample) compelling, and may not (e.g. if you're coming from the IWW) have any grades to show adcoms either. A very strong writer who was in my class at IWW, and who was later awarded a major fellowship by the Workshop, applied to 16 critical Ph.D. programs and (as I understand it) was rejected by 15 and wait-listed at Rutgers. That's a pretty typical story; those who had success applying to English Ph.D. programs out of the IWW either had contacts (Jorie Graham makes sure a few IWW poets get into the Harvard Ph.D. every few years) or switched to the less-marketable Comp. Lit. degree (where admissions is less competitive), or applied to one of the third- and fourth-tier programs know for a commitment to poetry (SUNY-Buffalo, UC-Santa Cruz, &c) or, like me, got into one of the largest Ph.D. programs that are in the top 20 (while I didn't apply to Berkeley, I know a couple poets who did and got in; Berkeley accepts 45 people a year, compared to perhaps 7 or 8 at a poetry-friendly place like Johns Hopkins -- and many years many of the top programs won't take even a single contemporary poetry studies applicant).

In any case, CJ, I imagine you were trying to insult me -- you usually don't tell someone you don't know, who's in a 6-year program with a 9.5-year time-to-degree, "I think you could have done much better" -- but I'm using this instead as a chance to point out that most traditional Ph.D. programs erect a thousand-foot high wall between creative writers and scholars, and to attend there is to spend nearly a decade going entirely unrecognized as a creative writer. With all due respect to those people, many of them were willing to take that chance because they've done nothing yet in their field to make it seem likely they would ever be able to teach creative writing, so expanding their professional oeuvre to a non-creative pursuit is in fact a necessity. I applied to Ph.D. programs with a law degree, a book, 150 national print publications, a competitive national award for poets (awarded only 13 times, 6 of them to Pulitzer Prize winners or U.S. Poet Laureates), and guess what -- the only traditional Ph.D. program I applied to likely to care about any of that stuff was Wisconsin. I wouldn't have gotten into Cornell, had I applied, because my law school GPA was 3.33 (I went largely so I could practice as a public defender, I had little academic interest in the law at that time), I had no grades to offer from Iowa, no adcom but Wisconsin's would read my creative writing sample or consider my prior publications, I never did an Honor Thesis in college, my English major (and last critical paper) was a dozen years in the past at the time of my application, most schools don't want to support someone getting their third terminal degree (because it makes you look like a dilettante and unlikely to finish), and most traditional Ph.D. programs have virtually no one doing contemporary Poetry Studies and so the "fit" would be a dealbreaker even if everything else was in place. My point is: Writers have to get creative about their advanced degrees in this competitive atmosphere, but anyone who thinks the non-CW Ph.D. application system isn't an entirely different ballgame has no clue what they're talking about.

Madison is Tier 1 (ahead of Brown, for instance) in my specialization -- post-1845 American Lit -- is #16 nationally in placement at top national colleges and universities (about 0.1% data-wise behind Duke, Michigan, and NYU) and top 20 overall. A creative writer looking for a traditional Ph.D. with a major creative component is going to see USC's CW Ph.D. at #30 or so nationally and that's about it. As I mentioned above, Madison has more grads working at the top 50 colleges and national universities than every single university with a CW Ph.D. combined -- and not just CW grads, but the entire English Department at all of these schools combined. And I absolutely am in love with Madison -- I can't see living in, say, Baltimore for 6+ years. Or New Haven. Or Princeton (a town I personally detest). And I hate (literally can't abide) warm weather, so no interest in UCLA, Duke, UNC, or (frankly) Berkeley or Stanford. And for personal reasons it was not a good idea for me to apply to either Columbia or Cornell (a different reason for each). So these things are complicated.

I really hope other young writers will not throw away their identity as writers by trying to swing into a school -- like University of Chicago -- whose commitment to CW is so light that there's not even an MFA program there, let alone a top program like the one at UW. People need to really think these things through -- when UGA offered me $26K/yr. for six years I was floored and honored, but that wasn't the degree (a CW Ph.D.) I wanted. IMHO creative writers either need to wholly hang onto their identity as writers and do a CW Ph.D., or find a hybrid program (of which there's only 1 nationally), or hit the adjunct circuit or whatever -- but if you dive into academia for a decade at a place with no on-site CW community, in many instances it's as good as a recognition of defeat in the area you're most interested in.

Be well, all,
Seth
P.S. I wouldn't say me "hitting the job market" at 40 is the same as some others -- by the time I was 30 I'd practiced law for 7 years, CJ!


(This post was edited by umass76 on Mar 4, 2010, 4:09 PM)


unsaid78


Mar 4, 2010, 4:17 PM

Post #1600 of 2090 (14827 views)
Shortcut
Re: [umass76] Where Did You Apply? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice approach, Seth. Great info, right on time. Thanks!


www.mfachronicles.blogspot.com - Follow us as we begin our 1st years in MFA programs!

First page Previous page 1 ... 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 ... 84 Next page Last page  View All

Main Index » Writing and Publishing » MFA Programs

 


P&W Newsletters

Sign up to receive our monthly email newsletter to stay informed of the latest news, events and more.

Click to Sign Up

Subscribe to P&W Magazine | Donate Now | Advertise | Sign up for E-Newsletter | About Us | Contact Us

© Copyright Poets & Writers 2011. All Rights Reserved