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tina cane


Oct 22, 2004, 9:29 AM

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Why an MFA --- MA vs MFA Can't Post

I'm writing a short essay on the pros and cons of MFA programs for poets. I, myself, am a poet who does not have an MFA. I did my graduate degree (lit) in France. A well-established poet once told me, when I expressed regret over not having done an MFA, that it's better
that way since workshops often produce students who become overly influenced by their teachers. I don't have that problem, but often feeI outside of a network that might help me publish more of my work. Another friend once complained that his program was producing students who felt the degree "made" or legitimized them as poets. I wonder, what is the true value of an MFA for the poet?


(This post was edited by motet on Feb 12, 2006, 6:22 PM)


pongo
Buy this book!


Oct 22, 2004, 11:49 AM

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Some people actually learn a lot while getting an MFA. That's the main reason to get one. Some schools offer good networking prospects, and a few people will get teacing jobs with MFA's, but as a rule the only reason to get one is to improve your writing.

As far as the workshops turning out uniform material, well, that's a problem with workshops of all sorts, not just MFA workshops. You have to choose wisely.

dmh


wiswriter
Bob S.

Oct 22, 2004, 11:58 AM

Post #3 of 56 (10715 views)
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Tina, great questions. They've been discussed on and off in the massive "Choosing an MFA" topic held over from the old Speakeasy, but this gives them their own space. My primary genre is fiction. But I do write poems as well and I'm about to start an MFA in which I'll be studying and writing both fiction and poetry, so I hope you won't mind me chiming in.

The only thing that legitimizes a writer is a reader. The top MFA programs are more selective than Harvard Medical School, so there's definitely a danger in writers treating MFA admission as an end rather than a means. That's probably a greater risk for poets than prose writers, because success in terms of readership is harder to come by for poets. But that premature legitimization occurs in the poet's mind and it's the poet's problem. I'm not sure it's relevant to the worth of an MFA for poets generally.

Every writer needs teachers. Apprenticeship has been the norm for poets and writers since ancient times. Therefore I wonder what "overly influenced" really means. It seems to imply that influence is a dangerous thing. T.S. Eliot had a longer and closer relationship with Ezra Pound than most MFA students have with their teachers. Was that bad? Was Eliot overly influenced by Pound? Sure, some writers of modest talent become mere mimics of their teachers. But again, I think that's a problem with the writer, not the apprenticeship.

I think MFA programs have democratized writing by giving writers of diverse means and backgrounds access to apprenticeship with established and even famous writers. That, to me, is the true value of the MFA. It means you don't have to move to Paris and live off your family fortune while waiting for Gertrude Stein to walk in the door of the cafe. It means more influence for more writers. And I think, on balance, that's a pretty good thing.


(This post was edited by wiswriter on Oct 22, 2004, 11:59 AM)


bighark


Oct 24, 2004, 5:47 PM

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Interesting point in an old Salon article:


....Even purportedly "homogenizing" programs like Iowa's produce highly original writers like Denis Johnson, whose brooding, almost biblical fiction can hardly be called Kmart realism. Johnson, who has also taught at Iowa, thinks that the "sameness" in the work of some workshop graduates is "just temporary; the talented ones get over it." What good programs do offer is an accelerated learning of the nuts and bolts of building fiction. "You have to put in an apprenticeship, as with any art," says Busch. "A workshop can help them shorten their apprenticeship, which is a pretty good thing." "It takes a lot of manipulation of language to make a story," Johnson concurs. "You have to practice a lot. I didn't get anywhere with prose until I'd written a couple of books worth of stuff." ...

http://archive.salon.com/april97/writing2970401.html


waughwaugh


Feb 12, 2006, 9:48 AM

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M.A. vs. M.F.A. Can't Post

I found out last week that I got into an M.A. program. I know that the M.F.A. is a "terminal degree," that the M.A. is not. But does a creative writing M.A. prepare me to go on to get a PhD in literature, or only to go on to get a PhD in creative writing/literature? Can anyone give me some more insight into the difference between these two degrees, especially in light of the fact that both often seem to require two years of study and workshops? Thanks.


pongo
Buy this book!


Feb 12, 2006, 11:54 AM

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An M.A. or an MFA will prepare you for a PhD in pretty much anything you want (including computer science). Many schools do still consider the MFA as terminal, but in some cases it's only terminal to your career.

dmh


The Review Mirror, available at www.unsolicitedpress.com

Difficult Listening, Sundays from ten to noon (Central time), at http://www.radiofreenashville.org/.

http://home.comcast.net/~david.m.harris/site/


HopperFu


Feb 12, 2006, 1:25 PM

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Re: [pongo] M.A. vs. M.F.A. Can't Post

Depends what you want to do with your career. You can teach creative writing - and yes, at many schools, literature - with an MFA. Publication credits carry a lot (if not most) of the weight when it comes to hiring.
If you are unsure, I would suggest contacting a couple of schools that you are thinking of for Ph.D. programs and asking them directly; I'm sure they would be happy to answer, and though they might not have the definative answer, they will at least be able to give you a good idea.
It's probably too late to apply anywhere, but my understanding is that for most Ph.D. programs you end up picking up your masters along the way. They don't expect you to have it coming in.
The real question is what do you want to do with your degree. Some MFA programs are almost exclusively workshop oriented, some are a mix of workshop and lit classes. An MA would, I think, be almost exclusively geared towards lit classes.


texasgurl
Stacy Patton Anderson


Feb 13, 2006, 8:53 AM

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Re: [HopperFu] M.A. vs. M.F.A. Can't Post

Well, actually, it depends on the M.A. program. UC Davis has a creative writing program that's focused primarily on writing, not literature. There's a literature component, sure, but the degree and the bulk of the coursework is in writing, not literature. I don't know about other M.A. programs in writing, but maybe others on the board do.


Stacy Patton Anderson
http://family-of-five.com


HopperFu


Feb 13, 2006, 8:59 AM

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Re: [texasgurl] M.A. vs. M.F.A. Can't Post

Good point, texasgurl. There are a couple of other creative writing geared MA programs that I know of. Sorry, I was thinking exclusively of "traditional" MA programs.
If you are trying to decide between creative writing MA and MFA programs, though, there is some benefit - if you want to teach - to going for an MFA (over an MA only).
My understanding is that you can certainly get adjunct jobs with an MA, but that to qualify for tenure track jobs, at most institutions, you have to have a terminal degree.


WittyName32


Feb 14, 2006, 7:35 AM

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In Reply To
If you are trying to decide between creative writing MA and MFA programs, though, there is some benefit - if you want to teach - to going for an MFA (over an MA only).
My understanding is that you can certainly get adjunct jobs with an MA, but that to qualify for tenure track jobs, at most institutions, you have to have a terminal degree.

If only so confusion can reign, I'll add it's easier to start out in teaching with an MA in English-Creative writing than it is with an MFA. You're not likely to impress a community college or small state school with your MFA and lack of publication record. And if they expect you to teach four classes, only one of them being a creative writing class, they'll need someone more suited to teaching literature or comp -- an MA candidate, even if they come from a writing-intensive MA program, like Davis.

As for tenure track jobs at most institutions, if your publication record is impressive, they'll take you. Zadie Smith doesn't have an MFA. Nor does Salman Rushdie. Neither Stephen King or a whole slew of writers. You publish well enough, and that might be a collection and a story in BASS, and you'll get a job.

If you look at places like University of Wisconsin, which sponsors post-graduate fellowships for students with a recent MFA and no book, you'll see they've accepted MA students. They don't advertise it, but they accept them -- or at least have accepted them.

An MFA guarantees nothing.



HopperFu


Feb 14, 2006, 9:04 AM

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Re: [WittyName32] M.A. vs. M.F.A. Can't Post

Well of course an MFA guarentees nothing. Neither does an MA, a Ph.D., or any other degree. And yeah, if you can win the Booker of Booker's for Midnight's Children, you'll probably get a job.
The original question was, what is the difference between an MA and an MFA, and what can you do with them.
Yes, you can get adjunct jobs and community college jobs with an MA. You can also do that with an MFA if you have proper teaching experience (many MFA programs offer the opportunity to teach comp courses). With an MA only, however, you will be excluded from job searches that require a terminal degree.
The real question is not what is the difference between the degrees, but rather, what do you want to get out of your education? Do you want to go because it will improve your writing? Prepare you for a job teaching creative writing? Teaching literature? Because you like school and think it will be cool?


libbyagain


Feb 14, 2006, 12:25 PM

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Re: [HopperFu] M.A. vs. M.F.A. Can't Post

Um. . . I just want to chime in and say you mostly can't get a cc. job these days, f-t, without a Ph.D. Certainly you can teach adjunct with an MA, but degree inflation has made Ph.D.'s super-easy to find; and they're almost always ranked higher than MA's in hiring committe hoo-ha, and so they get the jobs. I'm sure there are exceptions to this, but that's been my experience, both in LA and in a rural part of WNY.

Also, cc's won't be inclined to hire f-t from a creative track, even if 'twere Ph.D. The teaching load is just too diverse, and the creative writing courses too limited in number, to look a creative direction, at most cc's. I'm fairly typical, these days, I believe, as a new-ish cc prof teaching creative writing: Ph.D. in lit; tons of teaching experience in grad school lit and comp, and publishing in fiction that helped me to get the creative class when the other guy retired.


Elizabeth


HopperFu


Feb 14, 2006, 1:57 PM

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Re: [libbyagain] M.A. vs. M.F.A. Can't Post

Thanks libbyagain. It's kind of nice to have somebody who actually has experience giving us their take. Not like, well, me. :)


WittyName32


Feb 14, 2006, 3:45 PM

Post #14 of 56 (10310 views)
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In Reply To
"Well of course an MFA guarentees nothing. Neither does an MA, a Ph.D., or any other degree."

Well put. That's what I should have said -- and what I meant.

I just think it's circular thinking -- and defeatist, the type of thinking no writer should have -- to suggest that an MFA opposed to an MA allows you to get into a job search that requires a terminal degree, because as soon as you have a collection, you trump the terminal degree, so why not just choose the program that's right for you, whatever it may be? Otherwise, you're hoping for something you shouldn't be hoping for: that your degree will get you where you want to go, not your writing. Jobs are too tough to get. You shouldn't expect to get one without a book, unless you're just looking for a part-time gig without benefits in a place that'll slave you to death with a workload that won't allow for writing the collection you need to be saved from the part-time gig, thereby making that part-time gig a full-time thing.

"Do you want to go because it will improve your writing?"

That could be an MFA as much as an MA program. That could be a Ph.D. program in anthropology, which was good enough for Bellow and Vonnegut. My point being: don't go expecting to be taught how to write. This was my mind-set. I went to have the time to write, to be around other writers. It happened, yes, to be at an MA program. And if it was any different than an MFA ... I'd be shocked. The world is a petty place. Some school have petty reason for maintaining their program as an MA as opposed to an MFA.



HopperFu


Feb 14, 2006, 3:59 PM

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In Reply To

In Reply To
"why not just choose the program that's right for you, whatever it may be? Otherwise, you're hoping for something you shouldn't be hoping for: that your degree will get you where you want to go, not your writing."




As they say, "Amen, brother (or sister).
And as for improving your writing, I agree that an MFA is not the end-all-be-all. For some people it is a good fit for a variety of reasons - the time to write, the teachers, the peer group, the lit classes. For other people, an MA, a Ph.D., or any other degree might work better.
For many writers staying out of school is the best choice. Totally depends on you as a person and as a writer.
Again though, if you are trying to decide between an MA and an MFA, the big question is, why do you want to go to school in the first place?


waughwaugh


Feb 15, 2006, 1:00 AM

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Re: [HopperFu] M.A. vs. M.F.A. Can't Post

These are all good, helpful points/issues. I'll tell you: I want to go to school in order to have time to write and to better position myself to get a job teaching. And I think that's the boat most of us are in. I think we can go ahead and take it for granted that everyone knows there are no guarantees in life. And that most writers need day-jobs. I see no reason to be ashamed of this.

So here's my dilemma: I have gotten into an M.A. program that I feel is "right" for me, and I've gotten into a very prestigious M.F.A. program whose poets' work leaves me cold. Tell me what you think I should do.


franz


Feb 15, 2006, 3:18 AM

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In Reply To
These are all good, helpful points/issues. I'll tell you: I want to go to school in order to have time to write and to better position myself to get a job teaching. And I think that's the boat most of us are in. I think we can go ahead and take it for granted that everyone knows there are no guarantees in life. And that most writers need day-jobs. I see no reason to be ashamed of this.

So here's my dilemma: I have gotten into an M.A. program that I feel is "right" for me, and I've gotten into a very prestigious M.F.A. program whose poets' work leaves me cold. Tell me what you think I should do.


What are the programs? That's important in terms of making a decision. And what kind of funding are they offering?


Franz Knupfer, author of short stories and novels


HopperFu


Feb 15, 2006, 8:07 AM

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Re: [franz] M.A. vs. M.F.A. Can't Post

The funding is a big, if not the biggest thing, in my book. I mean, of course that depends on your situation (if you have financial support from your family, a spouse with a great job, etc.).
From everybody I've every talked to who has gone to a full-time MFA program (and I only know people who have gone with funding), the number one thing they got out of it was two years to concentrate on writing. The funding is what allows you to do that. That being said, it is not the ONLY thing. I do believe that an MFA program can help you elevate your talent.
My suggestion would be, in this order: follow the money, go where you think you think you can improve your writing the most, think about where you want to live, worry about the program's rep.
As for getting a job teaching, it will be your publication history that will be the number one thing that gets you hired. While it does help, of course, to go some where with a great rep and to have connections, excellent writing always, ALWAYS, ends up getting recognized (if not financially renumerated).
As for choosing between programs if funding is equal, probably the most important thing is your peer group, followed closely by the profs, and then, a distant third, reputation.
Of course, it depends on what KIND of teaching job you want. I'd be happy with a community college job, but my dream would be a tenure track job at a good creative writing program. Hence, I need an MFA. (And yes, there's going to be some nitwit who points out that some Nobel Prize winning author didn't have an MFA and she teaches at.... Well, I'm not holding my breath on the Nobel OR the Pulitzer. Though I'd take one if someone offered).


libbyagain


Feb 15, 2006, 8:36 AM

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Re: [waughwaugh] M.A. vs. M.F.A. Can't Post

First, congratulations on having a great set of options! Seems to me that speaks not only to the quality of your work so far, but also your ingenuity in positioning yourself to be able to MAKE such a choice.

It sounds like you're happier about the M.A. program. I'm ignorant, I confess, about the difference between a creative writing M.A. and an M.F.A. Does the former involve more lit classes? From my (admittedly prejudiced) pov, I think MORE lit classes are good things.

I also sure as heck don't blame your for keeping one eye trained in a pragmatic direction! I think Hopperfu's points about what one gets from a writing program are really good ones--time, time, time, and the opp. to enrich one's writing. YES.

Since/if you're ingenious, I'd totally encourage you to keep an eye peeled for certain opps that will make your vita look smashing, in addidtion to great creative material, and these don't necessarily involve a particular degree, but just taking advantage of what programs your school may contain. Often, English programs will run summer stuff for international, and "historically underrepresented" populations, and if you can participate in these you'll catch the eye of prospective employers who will be seeking to fill several niches with a new hire (that's just often the way things go, in hiring these days, with down-sizing, and needs to have new hires wear several hats, at least initially). EOP programs are often looking for participants from across the curriculum who are strong writers; I myself am going to go to Singapore for a semester and teach, though I don't have international ed. experience per se. Such-like could also give you some valuable material for writing--and in this era of strong interest in international fiction/poetry, that might really be a great pragmatic as well as creative effort. If your M.A. program is at a school with lots of such-like opps, that's great; if it's even close to a university that does, that can also work well.

I'll back off now, because I really don't know too much about this-all, esp. from a more purist approach to the development of one's craft--the "great MFA" plus "all the great reccs for fab workshops" and "wonderful mentoring opps" thang. Me, I've totally pieced together my creative life. . . and aside from 3 mornings a week and summers, don't really have time for it. At Breadloaf, Bharti Mukherjee told me, sadly, "You just don't have the time you need." Joan Silbur said "You do--but just don't have children, whatever you do."

Over and out.

Elizabeth


pongo
Buy this book!


Feb 15, 2006, 11:30 AM

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In Reply To

So here's my dilemma: I have gotten into an M.A. program that I feel is "right" for me, and I've gotten into a very prestigious M.F.A. program whose poets' work leaves me cold. Tell me what you think I should do.


The real issue isn't how you feel about the poets' work, but whether or not they are good teachers. If they're good teachers, you won't be learning to write like them anyway, but like yourself.

dmh


The Review Mirror, available at www.unsolicitedpress.com

Difficult Listening, Sundays from ten to noon (Central time), at http://www.radiofreenashville.org/.

http://home.comcast.net/~david.m.harris/site/


WittyName32


Feb 15, 2006, 4:53 PM

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In Reply To
(And yes, there's going to be some nitwit who points out that some Nobel Prize winning author didn't have an MFA and she teaches at.... Well, I'm not holding my breath on the Nobel OR the Pulitzer. Though I'd take one if someone offered).

Look, I don't want to become the subject of one your anger-management sessions, but I was just trying to provide another side to the story. Is there room for that in this forum? Or must you call anyone who disagrees with you a nitwit?

You suggested if you want a tenure track job in CW you had better get an MFA. I believe that's wrong, even if they advertise this, and so I'd like people looking for information to at least hear me say that. I've formed my opinion based on my talks with other writers, people who've sat on hiring committees. Me, I went to a fully funded MA program that gave me something not all MFA programs do, even the prestigious ones: experience teaching creative writing to undergraduates. During my two years in the program, I didn't have to work and I wrote only one literature paper. I focused entirely on writing, and worked with very well published authors, taking four workshops over six quarters. If a hiring committee interviewed me, they'd see my experience is the equivalent of an MFA. A lot of the time you will see this phrase on a job search ad. "Or equivalent."

So, based on this experience, I said choose an MA program if that's right for you -- and certainly not all MA programs are the right choice; I'd only go to a fully-funded one with a top-notch faculty. But if you find one like I did, and then if you get a collection published -- which you'll need for such a tenure track job -- you'll be all right in the end with a little old MA.

In my above post, I started at the obvious -- Zadie Smith, Rushdie, no MFA -- and sank down from there to a writer with a collection published, a story in BASS. Get that, I said, you'll be fine. You're stuck on Rushdie. And though you're free to disagree with me, how about you let someone disagree with you?



WittyName32


Feb 15, 2006, 5:05 PM

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In Reply To

In Reply To


"The real issue isn't how you feel about the poets' work, but whether or not they are good teachers. If they're good teachers, you won't be learning to write like them anyway, but like yourself. "



This was my experience. A big name drew me to my program, and she was extremely helpful when working on my thesis. But the people I hadn't heard of (despite their NYT notable books) proved the better teachers in workshop, showing me how to look at my writing in new ways or challenging me to get better in ways that infuriated me (but in the end produced results). One writer I speak of writes "women's fiction," the other writes from the point of view of a sexual orientation different than mine. I say this because coming in I didn't imagine they'd be a great help, being writers who were so different than me. But all that's balderdash. Writers are writers. They all go through the same things. And only some are great teachers.

The Catch 22 is you can't know who the good teachers are until you get there; you can only hope to hear good word of mouth and follow it. Then too a lot of it depends on the mix of the students in your class -- you learn just as much outside of workshop as you do inside it. It's another intangible you can't predict. So that's where reputation comes in, I guess.



HopperFu


Feb 15, 2006, 8:10 PM

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Sorry WittyName32, I wasn't trying to tweak you and I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. "Tone," or lack thereof, is always a problem on this message board, which is why pretty much all of my posts have had some sort of "in my opinion," or "as far as I know in them." Feel free to disagree.
As to your point about getting a job, yeah, if you get into Best American Short Stories (and how many essentially new authors get that distinction every year? One? Two?), or the poetry equivalent, and if you have a well regarded collection of short stories (also fairly rare), you will probably be able to get a teaching job with any degree, including an M.D.
Unfortunately, that leaves out the vast majority of graduates from MFA and MA programs. That's sort of like making the argument that if you want to be a movie star, you can make it in Scranton; if you've got it, you've got. True enough, but it's makes it easier if you move to LA. I read the basic question to mean, essentially, what will make getting an academic job EASIER, and MFA or an MA. I'm curious if anyone has any actual stats on the number of tenure track creative writing jobs went to Ph.Ds, MFAs, MAs, and other or non-degreed.
On some level, this is a silly argument anyway: it's impossible to make blanket statements about writing. There are plenty of MA programs that, with equal funding, I would rank way higher than some (many) MFA programs. You are absolutely spot on about the teaching aspect in the grad program being critical in terms of job prep. I know one student who graduated from a well regarded MFA program who ended up staying an extra year essentially working as a TA, because while she had experience teaching creative writing, she had none teaching comp classes, and was (with little publication history) essentially unmarketable.


Raysen


Aug 13, 2008, 3:47 PM

Post #24 of 56 (9864 views)
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I'm curious. Why do many universities maintain an MA program, but not an MFA program, and vice versa? What are the reasons behind supporting one program vs. the other?

For example, why does UCDavis maintain/support an MA (w/ creative writing emphasis) program but not an MFA program? Is there some accreditation involved that requires lots of money? Is it that most universities can get away with not funding MA students but not MFA students and therefore, they can't open up an MFA program because of lack of funds? I can't believe universities like Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, and Duke can't afford to support an MFA program. Is it because the tenured faculty they have on board are literature theory types and not creative writing types and to open up an MFA program, they'd have to hire new teachers costing mucho $$$?

I'm trying to understand the reasons behind why some schools elect to support an MA but not an MFA (and vice versa).

Thanks.


whyGA77


Aug 21, 2008, 9:40 AM

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Re: [Raysen] M.A. vs. M.F.A. Can't Post

I'm having a problem choosing between applying to an MA and an MFA in some schools. I'm mostly applying to MFA programs, but there are at least two schools on my list (Western Michigan and Northwestern) that offer MAs in Creative Writing as well as MFAs. I have heard that sometimes the MA program is easier to get into (I applied to 7 MFA programs last year and ultimately got denied from all of them), so I want to increase my chances this year.

I want to improve my writing, of course, but mainly I want to teach at the college level. I'm not a big literature buff - I'm more content reading and writing short stories, so that's also what I'd like to teach (as opposed to the classics or literary analysis).

I just want to get in this year, and if an MA is easier to be admitted to, shouldn't I go that route? The MA at Northwestern is also 8 credits shorter (10 vs 18 for the MFA), thus cheaper...right?

I'm so confused...

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