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sibyline


Mar 24, 2006, 3:48 PM

Post #76 of 764 (14936 views)
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Re: [dtva] rankings Can't Post


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I haven't seen Ohio State in anyone's rankings, though people on other threads have noted the great funding, faculty, etc. Any thoughts? (if it isn't obvious, this is a program I'm seriously considering, though I've had offers from two other schools which might be considered more "prestigious." I'm trying to decide if I should care about the rankings factor as I make a decision.


Don't know a lot about OSU, but I was at a conference with a couple of OSU people last summer and found them really impressive. It's a three-year program right? Even better. What are the other schools and what kind of funding are you getting from them?


jennymck


Mar 24, 2006, 3:48 PM

Post #77 of 764 (14936 views)
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Re: [bighark] U.S. News and Worst Report Can't Post

I appreciate curiouskate's post. You made a number of interesting points. As far as this ranking discussion, though, what about nonfiction programs? It's funny because so many of these top fiction and poetry programs just don't offer nonfiction concentrations so they're totally off my radar. Which nonfiction programs are most attractive to people? The ones that come to mind for me are:
Columbia (although too expensive)
Iowa (although I'm not clear how well-regarded the nonfiction program is, although it appeals to me greatly)
Arizona
Sarah Lawrence (also too $$)
Emerson (also too $$ plus all its other aforementioned problems)
Minnesota
Wilmington
Pitt
Penn State
Notre Dame?
Hollins?
George Mason (although I hate that area because I grew up right around there, don't want to go back)
OSU?

Also, Tom was saying in his last mailbag that he thinks nonfiction progs are the most competitive because it's this growing thing but right now there are more slots available then people. I wonder if that's true?? Here's his post:

As far as nonfiction programs in general: Only about 20% of programs offer nonfiction programs (that’s a ballpark figure, but I think it’s close), and that will be growing. I can tell you that more and more universities are seeking nonfiction teachers for the undergraduate and graduate level. Just check out the MLA and AWP job listings. My answer: very competitive. There is a growing interest, but not yet enough slots. I’d say, man-facting, that the nonfiction programs are the most competitive.


dtva


Mar 24, 2006, 4:02 PM

Post #78 of 764 (14923 views)
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Re: [sibyline] rankings Can't Post


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In Reply To

Don't know a lot about OSU, but I was at a conference with a couple of OSU people last summer and found them really impressive. It's a three-year program right? Even better. What are the other schools and what kind of funding are you getting from them?

Sibyline, thanks for the quick response... I've had offers, with full funding, from U-Wash (Seattle), OSU and Indiana. I have, actually, decided against Indiana, and am still (like so many other tortured souls posting here) waiting on UVA. So, if I were lucky enough to get an offer from UVA, it would be a decision between OSU, UVA and Seattle.



soft petal


Mar 24, 2006, 5:48 PM

Post #79 of 764 (14881 views)
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Re: [dtva] rankings Can't Post

Seems like sansoleil and Clench Million are trying to decide what's best in a program, no need to fault either of them. Writers still have to eat, so for me, yeah, platitudes from someone in a powerhouse position ain't going to cut it. Publication is key, but guess what submissions editors read first? Iowa MFA's and people who list quality pubs in their letters. The internet is littered with editors who say this, even when they claim not to like it (mingram wrote a article in semi-response to this for the southwestern review, I think).


Clench Million
Charles

Mar 25, 2006, 3:20 AM

Post #80 of 764 (14818 views)
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Re: [soft petal] rankings Can't Post

Personally, I feel like SS is the closet to me in writerly outlook, so I find it funny to be contrasted against him.

However, let me say that what I meant before whas NOT that agents would look at MFA program above publications, no way, publications are top no doubt, my only claim was that being at a better MFA might
A) get you a closer read at literary magazines (I speak from experience here)
B) maybe (maybe!) will get you attention from literary agents looking for new talent. You might get to meet them and smooze with them prior to a random submission phase.


LookUp


Mar 25, 2006, 4:29 AM

Post #81 of 764 (14813 views)
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Re: [jdurose] Rankings -- I'm feeling left out! Can't Post

Arizona does too have non-fiction. Arizona STATE may not, but U of A does.


Windiciti



Mar 25, 2006, 9:56 PM

Post #82 of 764 (14751 views)
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Re: [Clench Million] What are your rankings? Can't Post

Does Tom Kealy rank or discuss the Low Res programs?
Thanks!


Clench Million
Charles

Mar 26, 2006, 3:43 AM

Post #83 of 764 (14715 views)
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Re: [Windiciti] What are your rankings? Can't Post

Yes, he talks about them. No, he doesn't rank them.
Honestly he doesn't talk about htem too much and admits his ignorance on the matter. However, he has a "low res queen" (or some name like that) who periodically posts on his blog.


Windiciti



Mar 26, 2006, 4:20 PM

Post #84 of 764 (14655 views)
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Re: [Clench Million] What are your rankings? Can't Post

Thanks, Clench Million!
I was tempted to buy the book a month ago, but that would have been a-backward because I'd already applied....so why spend the money?

Now that my acceptances are NU and Sewanee, and still waiting for WWC, there's really no point; especially since I can't apply to a resident program out of town. Wd. have loved to apply to Michigan, Iowa, Indiana, and OSU, otherwise.


jdurose
Julie

Mar 26, 2006, 6:41 PM

Post #85 of 764 (14627 views)
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Re: [Windiciti] What are your rankings? Can't Post

Not to be one of those people who just write posts to argue, but...

Even though I had sent the majority of my apps out by the time Tom Kealey's MFA Handbook arrived, it was definitely worth my $14.95. (I think it's even less now that it's available on B&N.) Let me first say that I've never met Kealey, and am not here as a publicist. Let me also say that TK doesn't know squat about nonfiction programs. (I mentioned before that we need a nonfiction addendum to his book.)

With that said (and no, I can't believe that I used that phrase on a thread for writers), it should be noted that the guy's book has a great section on how to make your final decision -- the types of questions to ask, with whom to speak, negotiating your offer. It also devotes a chunk of space to getting the most out of your MFA program -- teaching, writing workshops, publishing. I was particularly delighted -- who says "delighted" anymore?? -- with the "Helpful Sources Online" guide in the appendix.

I know. We write. We don't have piles of cash to burn. But this is a good use of twelve dollars and the few hours of reading time. And hey -- get paid for a few pieces, call yourself a freelancer, and write it off on your taxes.


Windiciti



Mar 26, 2006, 9:16 PM

Post #86 of 764 (14575 views)
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Re: [jdurose] What are your rankings? Can't Post

You've convinced me. I'll buy it!
Still waiting for the AWP (?) book from my library on Interlibrary loan. Have you seen that one? What do you think?
Thanks.


theapplepicker


Mar 29, 2006, 12:40 PM

Post #87 of 764 (14489 views)
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Re: [dtva] rankings Can't Post

dtva--

Have you spoken with students yet? Are you attending, or have you attended, the recruitment weekend?

Definitely give OSU a fair shake. I'm not a fiction person so I don't know how they stack up against UVA or Washington in fiction, but OSU's environment seems to be an extremely supportive one.


dtva


Mar 29, 2006, 12:46 PM

Post #88 of 764 (14483 views)
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Re: [theapplepicker] rankings Can't Post

Thanks, I have actually made the big decision (just last night, in fact!) and OSU it is. You're right, their fiction program is VERY supportive, vibrant, etc. All the students I spoke with were very happy. If there's anyone else out in the blogosphere headed to Columbus (or considering it) I'd love to hear from you!


theapplepicker


Mar 29, 2006, 1:17 PM

Post #89 of 764 (14465 views)
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Re: [dtva] rankings Can't Post

Congratulations!

You two, you're gonna make it.


fratres


Mar 29, 2006, 3:20 PM

Post #90 of 764 (14428 views)
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Post deleted by fratres

 


Windiciti



Mar 29, 2006, 5:27 PM

Post #91 of 764 (14378 views)
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Re: [dtva] rankings Can't Post

You are so fortunate! That wd. be one of my picks if I cd. go to a FT program out of town.
One of my favourite short story writers, Erin McGraw, teaches there.
Enjoy!


Stroudb


Mar 29, 2006, 7:31 PM

Post #92 of 764 (14348 views)
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Re: [fratres] U.S. News and Worst Report Can't Post

I should add Michigan to that list of places with great funding. With the new Zell Fellowships, everybody gets $18,000 the first year, and teaches in the second year (only one class a term) under a union contract (good pay, free health care).


__________



Aug 22, 2006, 3:03 PM

Post #93 of 764 (14154 views)
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KEALEY RANKS 'EM! Can't Post

Kealey never made an actual list, so I've assembled one based on the comments in his book. Ranking within the Top Whatever is somewhat arbitrary. Mostly Kealey would say, pretty confidently, matter of factly, "This is a Top __ school." A few schools were "easily in the Top __".

Then things get a little mysterious. You'll see he left out 25% of the schools, for starters. Is he a commitment-phobe? Light on knowledge? Afraid of error? Why is Cornell "easily in the top ten" but not in the Top 5, when a fifth school isn't even specified?

Discuss, kids, discuss!



KEALEY'S RANKINGS


TOP 5
  1. University of California, Irvine
  2. Michigan
  3. Indiana
  4. UT
  5. __________ ?

TOP 10


6. Cornell ("easily!")
7. Syracuse ("easily!)
8. John's Hopkins
9. UVA
10. Houston


TOP 20

11. Iowa
12. U-Mass ("easily!")
13. Brown
14. Oregon
15. Washington U, St. Louis
16. NYU
17. __________ ?
18. __________ ?
19. __________ ?
20. __________ ?



Who are these masked men?



six five four three two one 0 ->

(This post was edited by Junior Maas on Aug 22, 2006, 3:05 PM)


danip1


Aug 22, 2006, 4:33 PM

Post #94 of 764 (14143 views)
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Re: [Junior Maas] KEALEY RANKS 'EM! Can't Post

Check out what he wrote today (http://creative-writing-mfa-handbook.blogspot.com/).
So Purdue, Minnesota, UNCG, UNCW, Virginia, Florida State, Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Mississippi, Wisconsin, Arizona, & Arizona State fill out the list (and then some!).
I think the point Kealey tries to make is that rankings don't make sense for a program like CW. We're all looking for something different from our programs, and that changes where they'll each fall onto our respective lists.


Clench Million
Charles

Aug 22, 2006, 5:57 PM

Post #95 of 764 (14131 views)
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Re: [Junior Maas] KEALEY RANKS 'EM! Can't Post

I like Kealey's book a lot and think both it and the blog are helpful (they certainly helped me) however... his rankings never quite sat right with me.

If you went by general reputation in the publishing world, the top three would "easily" be Columbia, UCI and Iowa.

To have 2 of the top 3 not even in the his top 10 seems pretty odd. Now, I know, he is ranking funding as the most important thing which hurts several top schools, but that makes his list even more confusing for me. Is it a list of the top 20 schools to APPLY to or just the 20 best? Because he includes a lot of schools that don't have full funding and a couple that have pretty bad funding. Would it really be better to go to one of his top 10 without funding than to go to Iowa?



That said, I certainly think all the schools he listed are great and are all "easily" in the top 25, though some I question their specific placement within that.


Clench Million
Charles

Aug 22, 2006, 6:00 PM

Post #96 of 764 (14129 views)
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Re: [Junior Maas] KEALEY RANKS 'EM! Can't Post

As for the masked men, I'd be willing to bet he didn't have a full list of 20 in order and then left some out. There were just some schools he felt were definitely a top 5 or top 20 and listed those and didn't list ones he was on the fence about. Maybe he wasn't sure if Syracuse or Cornell should get the last place in the top 5, so didn't list either.


(This post was edited by Clench Million on Aug 22, 2006, 9:16 PM)


glerk12


Sep 3, 2006, 4:46 AM

Post #97 of 764 (13991 views)
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Re: [Clench Million] KEALEY RANKS 'EM! Can't Post

I don't think a single one of those programs offers nonfiction as an option. Curious. Well, I guess Iowa does, but it's sort of a third wheel.


(This post was edited by glerk12 on Sep 3, 2006, 4:54 AM)


Clench Million
Charles

Sep 3, 2006, 12:16 PM

Post #98 of 764 (13977 views)
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Re: [glerk12] KEALEY RANKS 'EM! Can't Post

A single one of the three I listed?

Iowa does, as you said, and Columbia definitly does, and it isn't any kind of third wheel there. Some of the best faculty are Non-fiction.

UCI, however, does not have a non-fiction program.


glerk12


Sep 3, 2006, 3:31 PM

Post #99 of 764 (13957 views)
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Re: [Clench Million] KEALEY RANKS 'EM! Can't Post

Actually, I meant on Kealey's top 25 'list'.


umass76


Dec 30, 2006, 4:12 PM

Post #100 of 764 (13653 views)
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Re: [glerk12] KEALEY RANKS 'EM! Can't Post

Hi all. Just wanted everyone to know that I've been reading Kealey's book and I do think it allows for a new ranking system to supplant the U.S. News ranking from almost a decade ago. I'm working on a very, very rough methodology--frankly Kealey's book *immediately* suggests a ranking system, including a rough "specific" ranking, which is at least better than the now out-dated U.S. News one--and I will post a link shortly, when I'm done. I hope that, within 24 hours, we'll all be working off a new ranking. While I know Kealey didn't intend to create a specific ranking, it's simply absurd that anyone is working off the 1997 rankings anymore. It makes us all look a little clueless. I'm hopeful this will be helpful to folks.

P.S. I didn't go to UMass, it's just a screen-name, so there's no bias there.

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