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bunnytutu


Feb 5, 2010, 7:37 PM

Post #301 of 351 (6493 views)
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Re: [cecilpeoples] new info? Can't Post


In Reply To
is there an application status website for brown?


Not that I know of. I don't believe there was one when I applied.

(To clarify, it was 800-900 applications just for Literary Art.)

Good Luck! And I feel for all of you. Especially you Brown hopefuls who laughed when you applied, and chuckled to yourself when you pressed that final "apply" button thinking there is no chance in hell you're gonna get in. Those of you who went, like I did, "There goes money I didn't have to a school that has plenty" when you paid the application fee. Hugs to you. I know the feeling.


bbroker


Feb 5, 2010, 7:46 PM

Post #302 of 351 (6487 views)
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Re: [bunnytutu] new info? Can't Post

hi bunnytutu,

did you get any sense of where they are in the application process? also, do are all potential applicants or it is it just for poetry?

sorry to pump you for info but I am very interested in being prepared for the process, whatever the choices made are!

thanks!


bunnytutu


Feb 5, 2010, 7:55 PM

Post #303 of 351 (6471 views)
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Re: [bbroker] new info? Can't Post


In Reply To
hi bunnytutu,

did you get any sense of where they are in the application process? also, do are all potential applicants or it is it just for poetry?

sorry to pump you for info but I am very interested in being prepared for the process, whatever the choices made are!

thanks!


Hi bb,
That number includes all applicants to the program with, I believe, the larger amount being in poetry. I haven't asked about "where in the process" they are. I DO know my initial email was late February. There seems to be a lot of energy in the program right now revolving around getting things done (multiple faculty members are returning from a semester long break) Hopefully that will also run over into choosing the applicants!
Fingers crossed.
-bt


bbroker


Feb 5, 2010, 7:57 PM

Post #304 of 351 (6470 views)
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Re: [bunnytutu] new info? Can't Post

thanks so much for the info! it is greatly appreciated!


Toaster


Feb 6, 2010, 1:19 AM

Post #305 of 351 (6417 views)
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Re: [bunnytutu] new info? Can't Post

Good information, thanks for this! Brown is among my dream schools, which all seemed clustered around the earliest deadlines. It's stressful knowing I could get my first rejection before I've even finished all my applications.


WanderingTree


Feb 6, 2010, 6:50 PM

Post #306 of 351 (6349 views)
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Re: [bunnytutu] new info? Can't Post

That's interesting that the higher number is in poetry. It seems like the opposite is usually true for many programs. I wonder how many people applied for playwriting and electronic writing.


bunnytutu


Feb 6, 2010, 7:05 PM

Post #307 of 351 (6342 views)
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In Reply To
That's interesting that the higher number is in poetry. It seems like the opposite is usually true for many programs. I wonder how many people applied for playwriting and electronic writing.


Yeah. I know. It does seem strange but that's what I was told. The electronic writing gets by far the least amount of applicants even though many of the people applying in other genres would be perfectly fine to apply to it as well. I have NO clue about playwriting.


bbroker


Feb 9, 2010, 6:39 AM

Post #308 of 351 (6168 views)
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Re: [bunnytutu] new info? Can't Post

hey bt,

just had another quick questions-- do all potential candidates do phone interviews in all genres? there's a lot of info from past years that I can't make head or tails of, so I thought I'd ask you!

thanks again for all the help!


bunnytutu


Feb 9, 2010, 11:46 AM

Post #309 of 351 (6107 views)
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Re: [bbroker] new info? Can't Post


In Reply To
hey bt,

just had another quick questions-- do all potential candidates do phone interviews in all genres? there's a lot of info from past years that I can't make head or tails of, so I thought I'd ask you!

thanks again for all the help!


The only phone interviews I've ever heard of were for my incoming class in poetry. It seemed the program was very interested in if we were geared towards creating some sort of community within the program. I have NO clue if they will be doing that this year. The person who conducted those interviews, Forrest Gander, is here this semester where as he was on leave last spring. One thing to know about the program, or the school even, is at Brown they never do the same thing twice--things are always done differently.


bunnytutu


Feb 10, 2010, 5:48 PM

Post #310 of 351 (5953 views)
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Re: [bunnytutu] new info? Can't Post

Hey peeps, C.D. Wright said today that she is still in the process of reading applications...


morganapple


Feb 10, 2010, 6:53 PM

Post #311 of 351 (5919 views)
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Re: [bunnytutu] new info? Can't Post

ahhh thanks for the update bunnytutu!! Tell C.D. I love her... Can we assume we won't be hearing anything until March?


bbroker


Feb 10, 2010, 7:11 PM

Post #312 of 351 (5904 views)
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Re: [bunnytutu] new info? Can't Post

bt,

I'm guessing that C.D. does poetry apps? Any word on fiction?

thanks again soooo much


bunnytutu


Feb 11, 2010, 12:48 AM

Post #313 of 351 (5850 views)
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Re: [bbroker] new info? Can't Post

i've got no idea about fiction. C.D. does do poetry and they sometimes split the apps between her, Forrest Gander, and Keith Waldrop. Not sure if they did that this year but there is NO WAY she is reading them all herself. The information I've gotten has been just kind of offered. I haven't really asked, but I'll see if maybe I can find out about fiction.

I adore C.D. too.


bunnytutu


Feb 17, 2010, 7:27 PM

Post #314 of 351 (5636 views)
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Re: [bunnytutu] new info? Can't Post

guess what? word 'round here is things are in the final stages.


(This post was edited by bunnytutu on Feb 17, 2010, 7:27 PM)


morganapple


Feb 17, 2010, 7:30 PM

Post #315 of 351 (5626 views)
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Re: [bunnytutu] new info? Can't Post

AHHHH! Thanks so much for keeping us updated, bunnytutu. On the off-chance that I get admitted out of 600+ poetry applicants, don't be surprised if I grill you for info on yr experience in the program. :)

So anxious to hear...


bbroker


Feb 17, 2010, 8:19 PM

Post #316 of 351 (5598 views)
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Re: [morganapple] new info? Can't Post

did they really have 600+ applicants in poetry???


bunnytutu


Feb 17, 2010, 8:31 PM

Post #317 of 351 (5587 views)
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Re: [bbroker] new info? Can't Post

no. i don't think it was 600. there were something between 850 - 950 (950 was the number i heard last) total for the Literary Arts with poetry being the larger group. would guestimate closer to 500.

yes. and feel free to pm me about the program anybody.
it has been totally exhausting but exhilarating.

this is my final semester BUT the kids you'll be pared with for next year
are fantastic.


orthetiger


Feb 17, 2010, 9:05 PM

Post #318 of 351 (5550 views)
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Re: [bunnytutu] new info? Can't Post

Seth has listed on TSE that the number of applications this year was 762...? He got that number somewhere and I like it better than 950... :)


umass76


Feb 17, 2010, 10:28 PM

Post #319 of 351 (5506 views)
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Re: [orthetiger] new info? Can't Post

Given historical trends, 950, I'm afraid, is a much more realistic number for Brown than the 762 that came from a different source.

That said, there is a 0% chance -- there is absolutely no chance whatsoever -- that Brown had more poetry applications this year than fiction applications. To repeat: zero chance. Particularly when the numbers being bandied about here (500 to 600 poetry applications) would give Brown more poetry applications than the Iowa Writers' Workshop, which not only ranks well higher than Brown in poetry but also gets twice as many total applications annually.

Repeat: zero chance. By way of illustration: in the 2008 TSE polling Brown had 200% more fiction applications than poetry applications, putting it not only perfectly in line with but indeed making it a national exemplar for the standing nationwide "2:1 principle" of fiction and poetry applications (sometimes called the 6:3:2 principle, when nonfiction applications are included).

If Brown even had 400 poetry applications it would be a minor miracle. And if Brown had more poetry applications than fiction applications it would mean that the sun was about to crash into the Earth. Seriously. Every historical trend from every MFA program in the country screams at the top of its lungs that that supposition is a non-starter -- an impossibility.

Other than that, I have no strong views on the matter.

S.


(This post was edited by umass76 on Feb 17, 2010, 10:32 PM)


umass76


Feb 17, 2010, 10:50 PM

Post #320 of 351 (5486 views)
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Re: [umass76] new info? Can't Post

PS I didn't intend that post as a slight to the OP; I appreciate him/her providing updated numbers for total applications, and if I'm not mistaken s/he said only that they "believed" there were more poetry apps than fictions apps, not that they were claiming it (or could/would claim it) as fact. And I can say that it is not a fact, so I hope the OP will go back to their source and get the breakdown for apps so I can put it on TSE (though if the source says more poetry than fiction apps, honestly I'm going to be asking for a phone number to confirm -- I literally couldn't put that on TSE without straight confirmation from the program).


bunnytutu


Feb 18, 2010, 9:04 PM

Post #321 of 351 (5304 views)
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Re: [umass76] new info? Can't Post

ouch! i was told by john cayley that we get more poetry applications than fiction. i'm just trying to help out those applying. the overall graduate applications were up 24%

http://today.brown.edu/articles/2010/01/grad-admissions

I have no interest in assisting or providing services to the tse.

your numbers were wrong. mine still sound MORE right.

peace.


bunnytutu


Feb 18, 2010, 9:32 PM

Post #322 of 351 (5290 views)
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Re: [bunnytutu] new info? Can't Post

and i must also say i said "guestimate" and chose to say something smaller than what was assumed.

my sources are the faculty. that is the people who are exhausted and red-eyed from reading the things. cd wright is not going to be like...i read 172 applications last night. the numbers are the numbers and most people round up or down in a conversation.

the one thing for absolutely sure: decisions have been made.

[the sun thing is totally ridiculous by the way.]

of course i would not be surprised to find out brown received more poetry applications than iowa. our faculty is awesome. the program is awesome. also keith waldrop just won the national book award AND he looks like a wizard.


umass76


Feb 18, 2010, 10:47 PM

Post #323 of 351 (5249 views)
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BT,

I'm not sure how or why you took anything I said as some kind of slight against Brown. It wasn't. I applied to Brown in 2007 and didn't get in; it was my first choice. So obviously I don't mean to slag off on Brown, I would have gone there over Iowa. In my personal view it's the best poetry program in the United States, bar none. That said -- and this is a question of data, not preference -- Brown will get more poetry applications than Iowa when Saddam Hussein is making snow angels in Hell.

I appreciate you trying to "help out those applying" -- my aim is precisely the same thing, which makes your own subsequent comment ("I have no interest in assisting or providing services to the TSE [sic]") somewhat defensive, and perhaps more a product of that defensiveness than any sense that your aim and mine are different. Because they are not.

I get e-mails from MFA directors and faculty members all the time updating their data with TSE. Why? Because they, like you, like me, and like everyone reading this wants data out there that is accurate. I appreciate that Brown is willing to provide confidential admissions data to their students (and we must assume it's confidential if Brown refuses, as it does, to release the full data online), so that their students will be in a position to spread that data to others; what you need to understand is that if the second-hand data Brown puts out flies in the face of four years of research of hundreds of programs, a lot of people (not just me) are going to discount it. At which point either Brown can step up and put the data on their website -- which they could do any second of the day if they wanted -- or else run the risk that confusion reigns regarding their program. For make no mistake: If Brown comes out and announces it is the only MFA program in the United States conclusively known to receive more poetry applications than fiction applications, a) its fiction program will take a significant hit (because such deviation from hundreds of other data-points might suggest to some there is something wrong with the fiction faculty or genre at Brown), and b) it will also be effectively announcing that its poetry-genre applications represent the longest odds in America, and by a lot. Given that applicants these days are spending $2,000+ (in some instances) on applications, having poets feel that their odds in applying to Brown are lower (by far) than their odds in applying to any other program in the U.S. might lead to some applicants not to apply who would have otherwise. Every year we now hear from people who applied to nearly every top program but Texas -- citing its ridiculously long odds as making it a poor cost-benefit option in choosing which 10-15 programs to apply to (and Texas offers much more money, and for a longer period of time, than Brown or anywhere else).

It's odd that Brown told you the exact percentage by which applications increased this year, how many applications total were received, which genre received the most applications, and even put you in contact with (or allowed you to be in contact with) a Digital Writing faculty member with respect to this apparently lockboxed admissions data, but would not, after all that, reveal to you how many poetry applications were received. Mind you, I'm not saying you're making anything up, and I've no interest in arguing with you -- you have some kind of pride thing at stake here, I've nothing at stake except wanting to get accurate into out to the 20,000 people who read TSE every week (who you have "no interest in assisting" despite your posts here) -- but I'm saying that John telling you "we get more poetry applications than fiction" doesn't cut the mustard for even the sort of non-professional researcher I am.

And FWIW, I would love to know on what basis you could possibly make a determination about whether your numbers "sound" right. As far as I can tell the sum total of your background in MFA research and MFA statistics is a single conversation in the doorway of the office of a Visiting Professor at Brown. With all due respect.

S.


(This post was edited by umass76 on Feb 18, 2010, 10:50 PM)


umass76


Feb 18, 2010, 11:05 PM

Post #324 of 351 (5237 views)
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PS: On 2/5 you expressed doubt about whether poetry got more apps than fiction at Brown ("I believe..."); on 2/6 you said you were certain ("I was told..."); on 2/11 you made it sound like you heard casually ("The information I've gotten has just been kind of offered..."); on 2/17 you stated the more-poetry-apps-in-2010 thing as a fact ("poetry [is] the larger group"); on 2/18 you pulled back and said, effectively, that the comment made to you pertained to historical trends ("I was was told by John Cayley that we get more poetry applications than fiction"). I do apologize if it seems like I'm jumping on you -- I do this (gather data on MFA programs) fairly seriously, and have done for some time, and I know better than anyone how many people are relying on this data. So if I'm incisive about it it's not because (as this has not historically been the case) I think anyone's trying to put out false information intentionally. I've said that several times, above. It's that sometimes well-intentioned people who aren't privvy to the actual data pass on hearsay that turns out to be wrong. This sounds like bad data, and so I'm pushing on it. Probably I'm pushing too hard, but then again, when you point out that Waldrop looks like a wizard (I'm a poet, you don't need to educate me about Keith's work or the man) it further makes me question whether being a Brown booster or trying to get data to applicants is your motive engine. If your primary aim was to "assist applicants" I'm not at all sure where the hostility toward TSE could possibly have come from -- it's this research that, as much as anything, has led to (because the TSE rankings were published) increases in applications of the sort you described at Brown (other highly-ranked [in P&W] programs have reported increases between 33% and 300% over 2009 figures).


umass76


Feb 18, 2010, 11:16 PM

Post #325 of 351 (5230 views)
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Looks like I made the right call to question your data -- anyone who simply writes "you're an ass" in a P&W message must be a) a joy in workshop, b) working out some issues. I mention this here (on the public board) so that no one will take as gospel the claim Brown had more poetry apps than fiction apps this year. It didn't, whether or not Keith Waldrop looks like a wizard. --S.

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